UHLENHUTH: Making Yale comp sci relevant

Monday, April 23, 2012

In our age of digital dependence, the Computer Science Department should be one of the most popular at Yale. From political revolutions fueled by social networking to indie bands raising funding on Kickstarter, computers and the Internet are transforming every aspect of how we live, work and play. Yalies of all stripes are clamoring to engage with these trends, but the Computer Science Department is dooming itself to irrelevance by refusing to provide the tools students need to be successful.

Code is the lingua franca of the 21st century. Whether it’s putting together a website for an advocacy campaign, writing a script to analyze some economic data or creating an app to help kids learn math, programming fluency has become a required skill for anyone looking to have an impact on the world.

The Yale student body understands this and desperately craves some structured way to learn these skills. Because the Computer Science Department refuses to meet this demand, some Yalies took matters into their own hands and founded the enormously popular HackYale group. The organization recruits tech-savvy students to run semester-long classes to teach fellow students basic proficiency in scripting and Web technology.

Last fall, HackYale taught two Web development classes to 60 students. They had to turn away over 500 other students who wanted to learn. This spring, they expanded to teach five classes but still had to turn away over 400 students. Yale administrators, take note: More than 10 percent of the undergraduate student body wanted to learn these skills so badly that they signed up to take an additional class above and beyond their regular schoolwork.

In the words of one faculty member I spoke to, the Computer Science Department’s position is that it isn’t in the business of teaching these “trade school skills.” While I certainly agree that Yale computer science shouldn’t be trying to pump out programmer worker bees, the department has a role to play in offering a few practical classes to give non-majors the programming proficiency they need to drive change in their world.

The department’s decision has repercussions outside of the Yale bubble as well. By failing to provide practical programming classes, Yale is contributing to New Haven’s economic irrelevance. When startups can’t find people with even basic coding skills, they leave New Haven for the greener pastures of Boston and Silicon Valley. As former president of the Yale Entrepreneurial Society, I saw countless Yale student startups sputter and die without because they couldn’t find a technically proficient co-founder. Less than 10 percent of ventures had founders that could actually build a product.

The good news is that there’s an easy first step that Yale computer science could take to start addressing this issue. It pains me to say it, but we could learn a thing or two from a certain institution in Cambridge. One thing that Harvard has absolutely gotten right is its introductory CS50 class that teaches students of all majors the practical scripting and Web programming skills they need to apply tech to their other interests. My sister — who chose Harvard over Yale partially because of classes like CS50 — started the semester knowing almost nothing about programming and finished with a job offer from a tech startup. She might not even end up being a computer science major, but the class gave her a solid set of skills that she’s already putting to work.

It would be simple to create a class along the lines of CS50 here at Yale. By refusing to do so, Yale is doing a huge disservice to its students and leaving them at a significant disadvantage out in the real world.

Max Uhlenhuth is a senior in Timothy Dwight College. Contact him at max.uhlenhuth@yale.edu.

Comments

1234qwer

you also need someone like David Malan to teach something like CS50
public__editor

Students who want to go into banking / consulting have to find time outside of classes to learn some basic financial modeling / case skills in order to make it past the first round of interviews (don’t tell anyone, but Econ classes are completely inapplicable). It’s a (perhaps unfortunate) part of that whole Yale thing: if you want to learn real world, applicable skills, you have to do so outside the classroom. If you want to learn these in the classroom, Yale’s the wrong place for you. This gap is what creates demand for organizations like HackYale, YCSIG, Smart Woman Securities, etc. to teach students these skills. And let’s be honest, picking up the requisite programming knowledge in STATA, R, or SAS for an Econ senior essay, enough Excel or financial modeling skills to be proficient enough in Excel for a summer job, enough business knowledge and instinct to get past a round of consulting interviews, or enough coding to form a solid foundation for an internship takes time, but it isn’t that hard — if you’re interested, buy a book on Amazon and work through it. If you want to understand the Cold War or Romantic Literature or Complex Analysis, you probably need a tenured professor and a TA. And if you feel you could have learned what you did in a particular class without the professor, TA, and other students, then that class probably shouldn’t be in the Blue Boook. That’s why we learn some things in the classroom and others outside.

Anon_CSMajor

@public__editor

You clearly aren’t a programmer if you think it’s viable to compare learning excel to the type of skills a developer needs to know to be get hired by a good tech company. There’s a reason GS and JPM hire History majors by the dozens and Facebook nearly requires a CS or EE degree. Consulting and Banking skills can be learned on the job because they are easy and a competent middle schooler to do them. CS is different.

uhlenhuthm

@public__editor – the same could be said about introductory Spanish classes, but no one is recommending that we get rid of those. Just as we have Spanish literature and introductory Spanish (which is mostly taught to non-majors), I see no reason why not to have CS theory alongside a solid pragmatic programming class (again, mostly taught to non-majors).
public__editor

I think the argument for intro Spanish is that it provides the tools necessary to later access the literature classes, or to understand the linguistics classes or do linguistic research in the Linguistics major. That is, it’s point isn’t to be “pre-professional” or provide “useful” skills, the point is to provide a foundation for further liberal arts study. In a similar way, upper level comp sci classes have practical assignments (building TCP/IP or database structures or compressors or whatever, I don’t know the technical terms) which are used to understand the theory and as a basis for research and understanding. I agree, in the same sense that Accounting is taught it would make sense to teach one pragmatic comp sci class for non-majors (and why doesn’t Intro to Programming fulfill this? I know a lot of non-majors who took this class to gain some familiarity with programming), but I think we should be very very very wary of your argument that in some sense it’s Yale’s duty to teach us the skills we need for our careers. Because if that were the case, then we should also have a financial modeling class, a consulting case study class, and a how to be an actor in New York class. The place for these things is extracurriculars, not Yale classrooms.

AayushU

So I’ve actually done all 3 of the things you mentioned, and in retrospect, I think a CS50 type class would’ve been goog preparation for that type of material. It’s easier to write a web server if you understand what HTML is, and it’s easier to write a database if you know what SQL is. Both of those things are covered in CS50.

The difference between what Max is talking about and what you keep bringing up is that case studies and financial modeling are mostly done in the workforce, whereas understanding web technologies is fundamental to being a CS major in today’s world. I don’t think we need an “Intro to JavaScript” or something like that, but a course that covers everything that modern web applications are built on, databases, servers, and scripting is very useful and a great exposure to various parts of CS.

AayushU

good*, not goog. Sorry about that

BaruchAtta

No you mean goog, as in Google.

fillupwho

I think Max’s point is that Intro Programming needs to be more relevant. I’ve never taken it before, but my impression is that it’s not very rewarding for the non-CS majors who do dabble in it. Maybe other people have had different experiences, but in general, I would think that having a course focused on immediate applicability while at the same time providing a foundation for further education in CS would be a great idea.

The analogy to teaching Spanish works very well here, in fact. In order to take any of the upper-level classes, you need to be able to program (or pick it up quickly) in some language. Why not teach programming in the context of building something useful? I would hate to have an intro Spanish class teach ONLY the words required to read Don Quixote. I like that we learn how to ask for directions. Learning the words in Don Quixote comes as a result of learning practical words.

Edit: And again, I don’t know what intro Programming is like right now, but from what I’ve heard, it’s more like learning a lot of the slang words used during Cervantes’ time, but not necessarily appearing in Don Quixote. It’s a lose-lose.

public__editor

@fillupwho Right, I completely agree with what you’ve said. But I’m pretty sure Max’s argument is more than “make Intro Programming a better class!” I think it reveals an attitude among some Yalies that the liberal arts system isn’t a valuable education system, and that Yale should gear itself more directly to preparing students for careers by doing so in the classroom. I say that the place for that is outside of the classroom, and that a solid liberal arts education should remain the focus of every department. There’s a piece about the Theater Studies department today in the YDN that grapples with similar issues: http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2012/apr/23/thespians-yale-degree-not-enough/ .

fillupwho

I agree that liberal arts is a valuable system, but I also think that a great education should be a fusion of (1) broadly chosen classes that provide a fundamental basis for thinking as well as (2) a selection of classes that provide basic competencies critical to real-world development while at the same time giving the student a sense of what the theory is like. The danger is if everyone takes only (2), but if we keep the number of classes in (2) small by setting the standards high, then it seems like there can be a good balance.

In fact, Yale is already pursuing a fusion of (1) and (2) with the language requirement. The reason Max and I bring up the Spanish analogy is exactly because we believe Yale isn’t tied down to a pure liberal arts philosophy but instead recognizes the importance of balance.

The main question becomes what the standards are for offering a basic-competency class. Clearly, we can agree that a “intro case-studies” class isn’t valuable because it would basically teach students how to interview (not even necessarily how to perform well on the job). Now, if CS50 were only good at teaching students to be Google employees, I would agree that it probably would belong more at a technical school or as a major-specific offering. However, (not to put words into Max’s mouth) I believe that the overall point is that coding is critical to many functional areas of life and will only become more essential in the future. In addition, the type of thinking required for even the most basic scripting language provides a framework for approaching problems that can be valuable in many areas of life, and this is what makes a class like CS50 fall into (2).

River_Tam

Teaching students how to be shitty web designers is hardly something the CS department should be doing.

fillupwho

Yes, we need to brace ourselves for the influx of errors establishing database connections. But fortunately, market forces will weed out the worst of them.
BaruchAtta

If you haven’t learned shitty web design by the time you got out of high school, then don’t bother.
My local community college teaches remedial English and shitty web design. If you need either, then you don’t belong at Yale.
If you are at Yale and you need to learn shitty web design or remedial English, that says something about Yale. And it isn’t really complementary.
How did you get into Yale and not know web design or programming? Isn’t that, like, required? They let you into Yale and you don’t know shitty programming? Geesh.

suteebu

I would ask you the same about etiquette and civil discourse.

uhlenhuthm

@River_Tam – I agree with that! But that’s not what I’m saying. The point is that Yale is getting left behind as the rest of the world keeps up with the technological revolution. For a Yale graduate in 2012 to leave this institution without some fluency in code represents a huge gap in the well-rounded liberal arts education of the modern man/woman.

At some level, every class at Yale is “applied” (unless you’re hanging out in the philosophy department). If we’re going to teach intro Spanish, I think classes like CS50 certainly have a place. And CS50 happens to be the most popular class at Harvard – by a margin of 200 students. And while our Cambridge counterparts might not be quite as clever or good looking as we are over here, they’re not dumb guys. The Harvard CS dept sees the value of a great pragmatic intro course and so does the student body. So do I.

River_Tam

Make them take CPSC 112 instead then. That’s the analogue to intro Spanish.

Just because students will willingly take the easiest course available doesn’t mean we should offer it.

Anon_CSMajor

You would be extremely hard pressed to find ANY current Yale student at all involved with the CS department who doesn’t agree with Uhlenhuth. Administrators, take note: if you prize student innovation or entrepreneurship THIS is the biggest bottleneck to successful student-created companies.

Yale is spending $6.5 million to turn the old DUH into the new “Center for Engineering Innovation and Design” – which looks to be pretty cool. However, I honestly believe that money would be better spent hiring new Malan-like CS professors (or bribing select members of the current Yale CS department faculty to retire).

Anon_CSMajor

Just to be clear, I am NOT talking about Spielman, Abadi, Eisenstat, Scassellati, Yang, or Zucker.

Anon_CSMajor

Because they are all too legit to quit.
anon12

Really though? Zucker is probably the worst professor I’ve had at Yale. And some of my favorite professors aren’t on your list. I guess everything is in the eyes of the beholder.

yalengineer

I agree with the CS department and @River_Tam. They shouldn’t be in the business of teaching “trade skills”. However, one should realize that MIT, Stanford, CMU, and even Harvard aren’t in that business either. However, they recognize that their **Intro CS** course shouldn’t be an **Intro to programming** course but it should still be incredibly addictive.

As an aside, Yale should look into choosing a new language to teach their course in. IMHO CS50 at Harvard is a bad idea since it teaches 8 languages in the course of 12 weeks. We should NOT be wasting people’s time and diluting a programmer’s knowledge with HTML, HTTP, and SQL but rather focus on a complete language with the intent of getting students hooked on coding.

Meanwhile, MIT is teaching Python (switched from Scheme), Stanford teaches Java (switched from C++), and CMU teaches Ruby. Harvard seems to be using C++. Yale should be playing attention to these changes. Perhaps, CPSC201 shouldn’t be teaching Scheme and switch back to C++. As for CPSC112, they should adopt a more straightforward language such as python or Java.

KV

CPSC112 _is_ taught in Java.

yalengineer

Good.

anon_hacker

HTTP is a protocol for transmitting hypertext over the Internet, not a computer programming language. Get your facts straight.

yalengineer

Yet, it is still taught in CS50. My point remains, Yale shouldn’t bother teaching it.

BaruchAtta

“… but rather focus on a complete language with the intent of getting students hooked on coding…”

Hey big boys. Here is news for you. If you are not “hooked on coding” by the end of High School, I doubt you ever will be.

And anyway isn’t “Hooked on Coding” a skill set package that parents use to teach their third graders? (joke)

If all you want are coders, then buy a book. PROGRAMMING is oh so much more than just coding. Coding is possibly the second least important step in programming. Are you aware that there is a difference between programming (design and architecture) and just simple COBOL code coding?

There are SO MANY MISCONCEPTIONS there in your Yale Ivory Towers, I don’t know where to start.
BaruchAtta

It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE what language you teach. Because language can be picked up in a few days by reading a book.
Repeat after me…
Programming is more than just coding. Programming is art.

yalengineer

Agreed. That is why I don’t think any department should be teaching a variety of languages but rather focusing on a single language to teach the elegance of CS.

penny_lane

This speaks to a larger issue about how Yalies ought to learn practical life skills. I file this dilemma in the same category as lack of basic accounting classes. The CS department probably isn’t the answer to this problem, any more than the econ department should be responsible for teaching me how to balance my checkbook, but the fact that the world’s most brilliant minds are unleashed upon the world clueless about such things is a little silly.

Maybe UCS could offer optional skills seminars not for course credit (financing a small business, web design, how to use SPSS, etc.) I know they tend to avoid providing services that might actually be useful, but hey, a girl can dream…

SY

I thought the same thing. Yale has taught basic accounting and financial reporting in econ. Not to train accountants, but to teach a basic language of economics and business. CS teaches a language, and calculus teaches a language of some sciences. Accounting and CS are foreign languages that will be used after forgetting most Spanish or French.

factuality

Speak for yourself (or, as seems more likely, delude yourself). After almost ten years in the wonderful world of finance, which do I use more – the “substitution effect” and the programming skills that I learned through a degree in economics or my French?

System.out.println(“Here’s a hint – not the CS”);

River_Tam

Well, see, here’s the problem – you’re using Java.

stevenwinter

This post is spot on. What it doesn’t mention for Yale is the donations they’re missing out on — think about how much Stanford and Harvard will reap from all of its alums going public…
Sam

Far too many of the comments on this assume that CS 50 has no academic value. The difference between CS 50 and the case interview class that was proposed earlier in the comments is that CS 50 actually exposes students to new, legitimate academic pursuits. I believe in the liberal arts, but the fact that something could be practical is hardly a strike against it.

Additionally, anybody who is opposed to Max’s proposal no longer has any right to complain about all the students going into consulting/finance. The appeal of those careers to many students is that you can get them with no preparation beyond a weekend reading Case in Point and then they offer to teach you useful skills.

Also, I have it from good sources that Max actually works for the CIA and is just a senior at Yale for cover.
basho

the bottom line is that Yale doesn’t prepare its students to be competitive or productive in the workplace. It’s a crime, because that should be its mission.

hrsn

Nope. That mission is called “servile arts” education.

yalie2012

Nice article, Max. As a CS+Math major CPSC 323 was about as close as it came.
The Anti-Yale

Did Yale teaching printing courses in the Gutenberg Galaxy era? Telegraph courses? Or radio courses? Television courses?

Film, yes because it is art.

But why platform courses for Internet programming?

What is Yale’s mission ,anyway (besides making U.S. Presidents, bridging Chinese/American relations and feeding Wall Street ?

PK

BaruchAtta

Programming is art. Done right, it is.

Opinionated

I have to laugh at the idea that Yale shouldn’t be teaching something because it is only a ‘trade school skill.’

If Yale is too snooty to teach a decent intro course in a subject that eveyone needs to know, then why teach anything at all?

I mean, afterall, if you are ‘man enough’ (‘woman enough’?), you don’t need no stinkin’ professor or TA(!), or whatever, right? You can just learn it on your own!

So, tell me again, why do we need Yale at all, if all she teaches is snooty courses that are totally disassociated from reality? You’re supposed to know all the stuff you can actually do something useful with before you get here, right? Or learn it all on your own, if you don’t know it already, because you’re such a stud!

I think I’ll give my donation to the food bank this year. They can use it.

River_Tam

> If Yale is too snooty to teach a decent intro course in a subject that eveyone needs to know, then why teach anything at all?

Because Yalies should be smart enough to figure out the basics of web design on their own time, just as they should be able to figure out how to do their own taxes without the Sterling Professor of Economics holding their hand.

BlindlyAgreesWithAboveComment

River_Tam is spot on. I’d be creeped out if some old Sterling Professor of Economics held my hand. Once again, such brilliant insight.
grumpyalum

Good web design is a practical and intellectual pursuit. Also, a CS50 equivalent would do more than that.

River_Tam

> Good web design is a practical and intellectual pursuit.

So is reading my W-2.

grumpyalum

A time-limited once-a-year skill is not the same as being able to utilize a language that allows you to dynamically produce and present content. Additionally, again, I imagine some webdesign (or maybe none) could be a part of a CS50 equivalent, but it would probably wouldn’t be much about the front-end and would be a lot of back-end work (though as an aside, people who work on the back-end really sometimes seem disrespectful to those that have to actually do the design portion of it a lot of the time).

Learning a multitude of languages or even a mode of thinking about a major programming language is vital. I’m sad I don’t know as much of it as I should.

Stop hatin’, get to appreciatin’.

penny_lane

I can figure out most of this stuff by trial and error, but it takes me a long time, even when I google stuff to get hints.

A class, while not intellectually rigorous, just cuts down on the amount of time I spend learning a fairly simple skill.

The Anti-Yale

“So, tell me again, why do we need Yale at all, if all she teaches is snooty courses that are totally disassociated from reality?”

“The human heart in conflict with itself” is hardly disassociated from “reality”. (And btw, which “reality” ? Religious, existential, solipsistic, etc.?

There are higher endeavors and there are lower endeavors. Studying techniques for building websites and platforms and learning HTML —-well you choose into which of the two categories these endeavors fall.

PK

BlindlyAgreesWithAboveComment

I wholeheartedly agree. You are completely right.

fillupwho

Okay, I never completely agreed with Max’s article, but seeing the alternative points of view expressed here really makes me want to defend it.

**Myth**: CS50 teaches low-level skills for changing the color scheme in HTML

**Fact**: Understanding what drives the technologies forward will become essential to changing the world. It’s not about having a new skill–it’s about being capable of creating new things and have an impact on the future.

**Myth**: Learning programming is like learning how to file your taxes

**Fact**: You file your taxes once a year, and software can do it for you.

**Myth**: I’ll just hire a programmer if I need one.

**Fact**: My friends get job offers every time they sneeze.

**Myth**: Saying that Yale should teach programming today is like saying that Yale should have taught printing when the Gutenberg was first invented.

**Fact**: Saying that Yale shouldn’t teach programming today is like saying that Socrates shouldn’t have taught writing back in the day.

River_Tam

> Myth: CS50 teaches low-level skills for changing the color scheme in HTML

Maybe you shouldn’t comment if you can’t form a technically coherent sentence.

> Myth: Learning programming is like learning how to file your taxes. Fact: You file your taxes once a year, and software can do it for you.

You can make webpages in Dreamweaver.

anon_hacker

> Maybe you shouldn’t comment if you can’t form a technically coherent sentence.

If you know anything about Computer Science, the first sentence is completely technically coherent.

> You can make webpages in Dreamweaver.

Hey River_Tam, can you tell me how the YDN website loads content dynamically? Can you make me a similar, basic prototype in Dreamweaver?

Your comments on this thread just reveal you for the ignorant, pretentious elitist that you really are.

yalengineer

Do you honestly believe that the YDN online wasn’t built using a WYSIWYG editor?

fillupwho

I think this is an important point: it’s becoming easier to do more advanced things using tools with nice GUI’s. Even though these tools suck today, I’m certain they’ll get better in the future, and this becomes an essential component in the question of whether or not knowing how to program will be necessary in the future.

In the immediate next few years, though, I don’t see those tools being good enough to allow students without programming knowledge to truly pursue their goals of making an impact on the world. It’s worth it for Yale to enable its students to be relevant leaders in this time frame.

sudipta_b

River, I normally agree with you on your wonderful political posts, but I have to disagree with you here. As a tech entrepreneur, I can attest that learning programming well enough to make something is a long process. I had to teach myself a ton of programming in order to reach that point after I graduated in 2008.

Perhaps you’re saying that learning programming is something we should be expected to do on our own. That’s fine, I can perhaps agree with that — but in that case, we should get rid of the foreign language requirement too. It’s a waste of tuition money to learn Intro X, just get Rosetta Stone during the summer and be done with it.

But what troubles me is that your comment (“You can make webpages in Dreamweaver”) smacks of a liberal, elitist, intellectual-paper-pushing-jobs-are-better-than-getting-your-hands-dirty-and-inventing-stuff attitude. Based on your other writings, I’m sure you don’t actually believe that. Please correct me if I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying.
fillupwho

Actually, that was technically coherent, both grammatically and content-wise. I’m not trying to be argumentative here, but that’s just a fact.

I don’t want to trade barbs, so let me just bring our conversation back to the relevant point: Doing taxes is a skill limited to a once-a-year activity that can wholly be accomplished with Turbo-tax. The skills you learn in CS50 can accomplish a lot more, and very little of it can be replicated with Dreamweaver (which, by the way, was written using skills learned in CS).

I think anyone who has both done taxes and built a useful tool can understand the difference in scope between the two.

The Anti-Yale

There are higher endeavors and there are lower endeavors. If the shoe fits, wear it.

PK

fillupwho

You’ve missed the point: in order to accomplish higher endeavors in the future, you’ll need these basic competencies.

I have no interest in getting into an argument on the internet (dammit too late), but if you want to actually make a point, instead of repeating the same misinformed statement over and over again, it would be great if you could answer this question: is reading/writing a higher endeavor or a lower endeavor? Which shoe fits? Or would it make more sense to say that it fits into neither artificially created binary bucket?

yalengineer

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding my criticism regarding CS50. A good **intro to programming** course shouldn’t be about teaching a breath of skills. Rather, it should be about teaching a philosophy of problem solving, i.e. writing programs that can solve a variety of everyday challenges. This is analogous to multiple social science courses which aim to teach students how to frame and understand global phenomena. A good CS course should aim to get students to start thinking about how to approach a problem and how they would solve it. As a result, I’m strongly for an intro programming class but strongly against a HTML-based course (because HTML isn’t a programming language, it’s a markup language).

Furthermore, anyone who confuses webdesign with programming is a fool.

ldffly

Amen.
fillupwho

The alternative viewpoints I was talking about weren’t yours, since those are exactly the original objections I had to Max’s article when he first told me about it. I’m just amazed that some people would argue we shouldn’t have this class because it would be as easy to self-teach as filing taxes, or even comparable in scope.

However, I do think that there’s more value to CS50 at Harvard than simply teaching students a ton of different languages, and it might be worth having at Yale, especially since it’s creating results.

I would also guess that HTML is not a main focus of CS50, or if it’s taught, it takes less than 2 mins to go through. The web programming segment would probably focus on ruby/rails or python/django, both of which give students a good idea of what problem solving in CS looks like because they’re simple scripting languages allow you to think about nothing but the algorithm.

yalengineer

Like you, I don’t think HTML is the main focus of CS50. However, I am troubled by the fact that the majority of this board assumes that programming = HTML writing ability.

In many regards, I agree with the point that River is trying to get to. The emphasis shouldn’t be on teaching people how to make websites. The emphasis is to get people to think about algorithms.

+1 for the ruby/rails, python/django suggestions.

fsilber

It’s not just the computer science department that has no interest in teaching practical computing. The business school won’t teach salesmanship, the psychology department won’t teach students who to make others do things by “using psychology on them”, and the social studies department refuses to teach students how to improve their social life.
sudipta_b

As Ray Kurzweil said, “The only second language you should worry about your kids learning is programming.”

I was part of the last class to graduate (Class of 2008) that could “place out” of the foreign language requirement by demonstrating competence in a language in high school. (I took AP Latin, and that was good enough to place out at the time. Yes I know it’s a dead language. No I don’t care.)

I have never looked back and wished that I didn’t place out. The lack of a foreign language hasn’t affected me one bit.

But I do wish I had taken a practical CS class (if such a class existed).

So let me put it this way: If you’re against Max’s proposal, are you also against the foreign language requirement?

My opinion is that if the foreign language requirement is because Yale believes we should graduate with an ability to communicate effectively with our colleagues across the world, then this should make some sort of Intro CS a requirement as well. Communication in the future will be based on programming. CS illiteracy will soon become an insurmountable handicap.

Disclaimer: I’m a tech entrepreneur, and this surely biases me.
BaruchAtta

**”…programmer worker bees…”**

Hooray! Obviously written by a non-programmer, who knows nearly nothing about the craft.

A good programmer is an artist and a craftsman, at least as much as a painter or sculptor, and certainly as much as an architect.

Mr MAX UHLENHUTH: I guess that Comp Sci will never be relevant to you, if you continue in your worker bee attitude.
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