Yale debates smoking

The possibility of a Yale-wide smoking ban has ignited debate on campus.

After details of a committee that is investigating the feasibility of making Yale a smoke-free campus were released yesterday, student opinion has emerged divided over the desirability of such a ban. Though the committee, called the Tobacco-Free Yale Workgroup, has yet to make any firm decisions on the details of the proposal, or on the logistical aspects of applying a ban, they intend to send out a survey to gauge student, staff and faculty support sometime in February.

Forty of 75 students interviewed said they would support a smoking ban that included designated smoking areas. 32 of those students said they would be in favor of an entirely smoke-free campus.

Started in fall 2009, the Tobacco-Free Yale Workgroup is comprises approximately 30 members, including University administrators, faculty and two students.

“I think that we have accomplished a couple of things, most notably the survey of the opinions about smoking policy at Yale,” Patricia Stumpf, assistant director of clinical studies at Yale HEALTH and committee member, said.

Over the summer, a survey was sent to members of the University that the committee identified as “as being impacted by or having an opinion about” the policy, and the results are currently being analyzed, Stumpf said. She added that the committee hopes to extend this survey to the greater Yale community in the next few weeks.

But no specific details about the proposed ban have been determined yet.

“There are so many ways to implement a smoke-free campus that no decision has been made,” Stumpf explained, adding that the committee is not even certain a smoking ban would be feasible on the Yale campus.

Stumpf said that before the committee can propose a smoking ban, it will need to investigate the consequences and benefits of such an action as well as how it would work logistically.

For Tamar Kharatishvili ’14, the idea of designated spaces for smoking is appealing. Kharatishvili said she thinks smoking should be moved away from areas like the main entrances and exits of buildings where large numbers of people have to pass through.

“I, for example, am severely affected by cigarette smoke, and hate it when I begin coughing like crazy almost every time I need to go to the library,” Kharatishvili said.

Margaret Coons ’14, from Columbus, Ohio, a city that has restricted smoking in public places, said she was surprised to see the prevalence of smoking on campus when she arrived this fall. Although she said the ban was an adjustment for the Columbus community, she added that it was ultimately beneficial.

“It would be great to have a smoke-free campus to create a nicer atmosphere for nonsmokers … especially in the residential colleges,” she said.

But more than 21 percent of students interviewed said they do not consider smoking to be a large concern on campus.

“In my experience, most smokers at Yale have been reasonably considerate,” Rhia Catapano ’12 said. “So I don’t think the ban is really necessary.”

While some students said they believe it is the right of non-smokers to avoid breathing secondhand smoke, opponents of the potential ban said they believe it is also a person’s right to smoke in public places.

Twenty-five percent of students interviewed said they would not support a campuswide smoking ban.

“I hate the continual harping on smokers and smoking culture,” said Alexander Xenakis GRD ’15 said. “The idea of corralling us [smokers] into tiny locations is not only inconvenient, but furthers the idea that smoking is something to be ashamed of and further alienates smokers from nonsmokers.”

Only nine of the 75 students interviewed were smokers themselves.

Roy Herbst ’84 GRD ’84, the recently appointed chief oncologist for the Smilow Cancer Center and the chair of the American Association for Cancer Research Task Force on Tobacco and Cancer, said he would strongly support a campuswide smoking ban at Yale due to the numerous health risks arising from smoking.

“Tobacco has been linked with 18 different types of cancer,” he said. “There’s no safe form of tobacco and banning it on an university campus is, in my opinion, clearly a very appropriate way to go.”

Miami University in Ohio is one of 466 schools nationwide that have smoke-free campuses.

At Miami University, smoking is prohibited on all university-owned grounds, including sidewalks, walkways, indoor/outdoor facilities and parking spaces.

The Miami University ban has had a visible impact on campus.

“Before there was this smoking ban, there were so many cigarette butts and packs everywhere,” Miami University junior Ryanaustin Dennis said. “The ban was like a way of cleaning up the campus.”

An independent survey on the Yale Daily News website showed 48 votes in favor of the smoking ban and 57 opposed to it as of press time.

Sam Greenberg contributed reporting.

Comments

  • townieexprof

    It doesnt really matter what the students think. Second hand smoke is lethal. The most recent studies indicate is far far more dangerous than anyone previously realized in terms of not only acute respiratory problems, but longer term mortality issues.

    Deignated smoking areas are a joke. The smoke and toxins diffuse easily and readily and further than you would imagine, since they are in gaseous form. The impact on workers (yes there are other people at Yale kids) etc is rapidly rising in university and workplace legal offices as an ominous threat since class action and OHSA issues are quite apparent. You can picture the headline in the TImes: Yale students pick smoking on campus while underpaid workers suffer numerous lung, cardiac and cancer issues…

    In terms of prevention of deaths from numerous causes, smoke free is the only way to go.

    Students probably have more of a live-and-let-live attitude regarding tobacco use/nicotine addiction as a habit that affects only the smoker. This is simply not true anymore. TIme to get with it and get rid of smoking everywhere, not just campus.

    Please inform yourselves

    http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Tobacco/ETS

  • Branford11

    It doesn’t really matter what the students think. Sure, a slight majority of students may click yes on a poll like this one because they don’t really have an opinion either way, and a smoking ban wouldn’t affect them. Sure, what the heck. But it seems unlikely that 53 percent of students actually feel like their health is regularly threatened by the absurdly tiny presence of cigarette smoke on campus. If you said “does Yale NEED a campus-wide smoking ban” I imagine you’d have far fewer yes’s. Don’t let what seems like an arbitrary whim to most of the 53 percent who say “sure why not” decide what actually has consequences for the 12 percent who smoke. A big part of whom, by the way, are Yale blue-collar employees. What a great way to thank them for their hard work, by taking aim at their cigarette breaks.

  • ROFLCOPTER

    If I wanna smoke a cig, I’m gonna smoke a cig.

  • ohno

    Pretty terrible university policy, if you ask me. Amen to Branford11 on employees who smoke. And what are all the smokers obstructing residential college entryways and gates I’m hearing about? I honestly can’t recall ever passing a smoker when entering a dorm building; maybe a couple outside the library or standing on Cross Campus. And regardless of how many smokers I or other students encounter, this policy makes NO SENSE on an open campus like Yale’s, which is integrated into a relatively sizable urban area. Our residential buildings, classrooms, sidewalks, walkways and the like are in between stores, apartment buildings, neighborhoods, and busy streets frequently populated by people who are not us. The city would have to ban it for it to be effective.

    I’ll reiterate what people said in the comments yesterday – drinking is illegal for under-21s, and Yale is not a dry campus. Smoking is perfectly legal and people who are over 18 ought to be able to do it outdoors in the street of a city. More resources for helping Yalies and employees quit, less pissing people off, please.

  • Andreology

    This is a solution in search of a problem.

  • NO

    YES andreology. thank you.

  • Undergrad

    As a non-smoker, I would oppose a ban on the basis that it would drive smoking indoors, in the secrecy of dorm rooms, creating a situation like we already have with marijuana where people are constantly opposed to second-hand smoke. But definitely increase resources to help students quit, and maybe ban smoking in the college courtyards and the stairs outside Bass.

  • Goldie08

    ^ that guy is a dweeb

  • commentator

    Well said, Andreology. Smoking is so marginal at Yale that it’s hardly worth talking about it.

  • 72alumna

    I think that smoking should be a disqualification for a degree. Smoking proves one is incapable of learning from news, history, science, medicine or human experience; that one fails to understand the most basic biology; and that the candidate is simply too stupid to be awarded a college degree. When David Kessler was dean of the med school, I suggested to him that Yale implement my policy, but he thought it a bit too harsh. I didn’t agree then, and I don’t now. It is definitely time to ban smoking. Since the campus as a whole consists of public streets, it’s impossible to create a smoke-free Yale. But smoking should not be permitted in any buildings or courtyards, or at any meetings, conferences, athletic events, anything sponsored by or connected to Yale.

  • yalie13

    I think that smoking should qualify you for an honorary degree since it’s not a big deal.

    Seriously, since it’s so marginal and a nonissue, we should start letting people smoke everywhere. I mean there are just so few people smoking. Let them smoke in the dining halls and the the residential colleges and in classrooms. So what if it’s a clinically proven health danger to everyone around them. We don’t want people thinking we’re wimps or that we’re trying to force an antismoking tyrannical regime on them.

    Now some people might say that if we could change the policy to make a campus-wide band, smokers would just move outside gates to smoke, it would become the new norm, being exposed to second-hand smoke would be far more avoidable, and people would stop caring again about the tragic plight of the smoker. But in reality, what will happen is that for decades, people will continue to rebel and smoke secretely indoors every time they remember that they can’t smoke at a slightly different location from before.

  • townieexprof

    Well, didnt expect so many immodest proposals.

    Most medical schools/hospitals have implemented smoke free policies.
    THese include major medical research institutions and hospitals whose campuses are as large as Yale or close.
    Point being: sidewalks connecting buildings, gardens and courtyards, the spaces right outside the doors, places around the buildings are all wonderfully smoke free.

    There is no acceptable level of smoke or any of the chemicals in cigarette smoke according to the National Cancer Institute.
    The smokers will have to deal with it.
    The tide has changed.

    The moans and groans went up from NYC bars and restaurants when the smoking ban went in place, screaming they would lose customers and money. Their income and visits actually went UP after the smoking ban.
    Maybe if Yale bans smoking, it can overcome Harvard in the US News and World Report, or even Princeton.

  • harbinger

    If Yale was serious about this being driven by health concerns, we’d see a dry campus. That’s right, how much harm is caused by too much alcohol? How many of the problems on campus can be traced directly to the over indulgence in demon rum? It’s a typical political excercise, the more unpopular the subject the easier a target it makes for self-proclaimed zealots. Let’s see the same junior health czars toss away that bottle of Jack along with the pack of smokes. What next for Yale and our budding guardians of good health? Calorie meters? 24 hour monitoring of Yale students and employees? Random smoke checks with a co2 meter? Body fat measurements and mandatory excercise sessions? They’ll make you healthy and happy in their image whether you like it or not. Ah, the dream of a socialist nirvana is alive and well within the addiction free walls of Yale.

  • Carol2000

    The anti-smokers are guilty of flagrant scientific fraud for ignoring more than 50 studies, which show that human papillomaviruses cause at least a quarter of non-small cell lung cancers. Smokers and passive smokers are more likely to have been exposed to this virus, for socioeconomic reasons. And the anti-smokers’ studies are all based on nothing but lifestyle questionnaires, so they’re cynically DESIGNED to blame tobacco for all those extra lung cancers that are really caused by HPV. And those criminals commit the same type of fraud with every disease they blame on tobacco.

    http://www.smokershistory.com/hpvlungc.htm

    http://www.smokershistory.com/etsheart.html

    For the government to commit fraud to deprive us of our liberties is automatically a violation of our Constitutional rights to the equal protection of the laws, just as much as if the government purposely threw innocent people in prison. And for the government to spread lies about phony smoking dangers is terrorism, no different from calling in phony bomb threats.

    This garbage has nothing to do with health. It’s a war of cultural genocide by fanatical cultists to ram a compulsory state religion, foundied on Nazi pseudo-science, down everyone’s throats.

  • Carol2000

    All the anti-smokers’ phony scientific reports were concocted by the same little clique of politically-connected charlatans who exclude real scientists from their echo chamber. They’re ring-led by Jonathan M. Samet, who supervised all the Surgeon General reports since the 1980s, the EPA report, the IARC report, and the ASHRAE report. That’s why they all agree! Plus, he testified at lawsuits against the tobacco companies, and he’s now the chairman of the FDA Committee on Tobacco.

    http://www.smokershistory.com/SGlies.html

    As for their beloved Environmental Protection Agency, its report on ETS wasn’t even written by the real EPA scientists. It was written by a handpicked frontman for the anti-smoking activists, Kenneth G. Brown, using illegal pass-through contracts to conceal their role. The actual EPA scientists were against calling ETS a human carcinogen. And, on the board of directors of the EPA contracting firm that handled the pass-throughs, ICF Inc., sat President George H.W. Bush’s 1992 campaign manager, Fred Malek.

  • Carol2000

    72alumna, it’s time to cut off Yale’s funding from the US taxpayers, for using our money to violate the US Constitution and impose your Puritan religion under false color of “science.”

  • Jaymin

    People need to get a grip. Most, including me, agree that smoking is harmful to your health. But, as I’ve stated in previous articles, there is more to life than longevity. Some measure a good life in terms of the lack of sickness; others don’t. If smoking, either for stress or as a social activity, somehow fits into your conception of living well, I may not understand it, but I’m not going to take that away from you.

  • Undergrad

    @goldie08: maybe you could actually make a meaningful contribution to the discussion, rather than resorting to name-calling.

    @Carol2000: you’re obviously a conspiracy-theorist troll–no one in their right mind still believes that smoking isn’t harmful to your health, especially first-hand smoke. Anyway, your argument doesn’t add up–what about the other 75% of non-small-cell lung cancers? And other types of lung cancers? I can’t see the entire perceived effect of smoking on health actually being caused by a sexually transmitted infection. And the original surgeon general’s report came out in the 1960s, so I don’t see why it matters who led them in the 80s.

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    There are 466 smoke-banned campuses out of a total of roughly 6,000 in the U.S. Clearly there’s no pressure for Yale to “join the movement” although I’m sure that the bandwagon argument is being used on the campus. Students need to be aware of why the ban is being pushed (and “pushed” is an appropriate word: do you really expect a group called “Tobacco Free Yale” to recommend anything other than a smoking ban?)

    Campus bans have nothing to do with health effects of secondary smoke: the studies purporting to show a concern about outdoor encounters with smoke are more laughable than scientific. The purpose of campus-wide bans lies purely in the realm of social engineering. You can teach rats to avoid certain behaviors with electric shocks. You can teach students to avoid certain behaviors if you “shock” them by making them walk for blocks off campus and then stand around in the rain and cold.

    There’s no sound medical or scientific reason in the world why Yale couldn’t offer its students a selection of comfortably furnished indoor areas where smoking students and their friends could gather to relax, smoke, watch TV, or study together. Simple and inexpensive exhaust ventilation would address any health issues, and the “clouds” of smokers outside entrances would largely disappear. To understand more of what’s driving these campus bans, read “The Lies Behind The Smoking Bans” at: http://kuneman.smokersclub.com/PASAN/StilettoGenv5h.pdf

    Michael J. McFadden
    Author of “Dissecting Antismokers’ Brains”

  • marbee

    I would wager that the poll they used asked only that if a ban were implemented would you prefer designated smoking areas or not! That’s how tobacco control always does it, and no one is the wiser. Makes it seems like everyone wants a ban, when in reality smokers don’t, and non-smokers don’t even think about it. In 2001, the AMA received almost $20 million from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (Johnson & Johnson’s huge tax exempt shareholder) in exchange for managing a nationwide effort to ban smoking. Pharma profits hugely!
    There’s even have a playbook: http://www.goingsmokefree.org/tools/downloads.html#media
    TOOLKIT FOR IMPLEMENTING SMOKE FREE LAWS
    Excerpt:
    Sample Press Releases
    Customize these sample press releases to keep the good news about going smoke free in people’s minds. Also, use these as a springboard for other press release ideas that are keyed in to your communities’ needs and concerns.

  • marbee

    Pharma giant Johnson & Johnson’s main shareholder and smoking ban shill, the RWJohnson Foundation, depends on it’s livlihood from J&J making and marketing cessation products. They have hoodwinked many people and gov’t officials that without smoking bans forcing 1/3 of the entire population of the U.S. and the rest of the world into submission, that smoking and second hand smoke will kill. They have spent over one Billion dollars to influence legislation to take away freedom and private property rights in the grand marketing scam of the century, and their created obesity crisis, along with global warming. The U.S. Surgeon General managed to avoid testifying under oath to a congressional committee along with the commissioner from the FDA. I say that is a conflict of interest to say the least, especially with FDA regulation of tobacco. The “harm” from second hand smoke is nothing but a way to a means!
    http://cleanairquality.blogspot.com/2006/ 12/osha-standards-and-air-quality-testing.html

  • bhilly

    Wow… I didn’t know that there were so many conspiracies surrounding tobacco research and legislation.
    I favor the smoking ban because I can’t talk to a smoker without wanting to hold my breath.

  • marbee

    I remember a report about a kid who seized from smoke. Turns out it was the sight of a cigarette that made him seize. A guy in the same park took one out and the kid seized, but it wasn’t a cigarette, it was a pen. Even college age students aren’t immune to the social engineering tobacco control perpetuates. And linking tobacco to cancer/? Everything everywhere can be linked to cancer, just pay for a study to show it and voila! You could ban cars, and toothpaste, and food, and milk, and the very air we breathe. It’s not about health, it IS about control!

  • marbee

    Well bhilly, do some research. If you’re reading a story about Yale perhaps you know how!

  • yalie13

    Carol2000, you remind me of that dude on Thank You For Smoking. You’d make a great tobacco company lobbyist.

    It seems some people finally understand that smoking is good for you and isn’t an addiction that causes all those made-up “scientifically proven” health detriments. If we want to find the truth, we shouldn’t go listening to those biased “scientists” who’s sole interests are to take over the world with their artificial scientific findings. We should listen to the real experts: tobacco companies. These are the real ol’ joe the plumber americans who’re looking out for us.

    We should help tobacco companies spread this truth of the health benefits of tobacco around the world and stop those pesky latte-sipping activists from “educating” third world nations that are just beginning to discover the great benefits of smoking.

    The Marloboro men and the chain-smoking Indonesian baby would be proud.

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Yalie13, you seem to be literate enough to be able to create a wonderfully sarcastic Straw Man argument. But now, are you literate enough to be able to offer any specific substantive criticisms of the information presented in “The Lies Behind The Smoking Bans” at the link I noted in my last posting about five posts above this. You’ll find that a good number of the leading studies that support smoking bans, including such outdoors ones as being proposed for Yale, are examined there. Perhaps you’d like to use your Yale education to defend them? Or does my U. of PA heritage frighten you?

    I’d like to extend that invitation to the Townieexprof poster as well since he or she seems to intimate that they’re an ex-professor at Yale.

    – MJM

  • yalie13

    Hahahaha MJM I never thought a rational person would ever argue that smoking being a health detriment is a conspiracy, unless that rational person is a tobacco company lobbyist of course.

    A hyperpoliticized metaanalysis that doesn’t follow the scientific method nor is published in any established science journal lacks credibility (especially if you’re citing yourself to make an argument). Go get yourself educated for a few years, earn a PhD in toxicology or a related science field, conduct a study, report your findings in a credible science journal, and then send me a link to that. Either do that, or send me link to a paper in a credible science journal that shows findings that say smoking isn’t bad for you.

    Other than that, I unfortunately don’t have time for a substansive criticism of that link you posted. I will just leave you with this:

    http://www.quit-smoking-stop.com/harmful-chemicals-in-cigarettes.html

    http://healthliteracy.worlded.org/docs/tobacco/Unit4/1whats_in.html

    Zhong, Y. Chemical Research in Toxicology, Jan. 15, 2011, online edition.
    News release, American Chemical Society.

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Don’t read very well up at Yale, Yalie? The link I sent you to is not a meta-analysis, much less a hyperpoliticized one. You evidently weren’t able to read even well enough to note that nowhere do I say anything at all like “smoking isn’t bad for you.”

    Try reading. It’s a good thing to do. I know it’s hard, and it’s hard to criticize something that analyzes scientific studies, but it *is* a good thing to do, particularly if you’re in college. I would think finding just a couple of substantive criticisms of a paper that was actually written at a level designed to be read by high-school graduates in dimly-lit bars shouldn’t be beyond you.

    – MJM
    P.S. It’s good to read, analyze, and reference scientific studies themselves rather than the advocacy articles you cited. You’ll note that my link cites a half dozen or more such studies in detail.

  • yalie13

    No I didn’t waste my time to read it once I noticed that it looked like a campaign poster rant, was self-cited, and wasn’t a research study. You may have some valid points or you might be talkin’ out of your but, but it didn’t pass my judgement as a credible source to spend my time analyzing.

    If you don’t follow a scientific method or you have an agenda, it’s irrelevant what you say because you’re no expert. Basically, the time cost of reading this far exceeded its benefit.

    Seriously though, I’ve got papers to write for class so I’m done commenting.

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Heh… way to go Yalie! About what I expected though. I wonder if Townie will do better?

    Actually Yalie, I’ll give you a chance to redeem yourself if you wish. Let’s see if you can cite and defend a single published scientific study that shows actual harm to people from outdoor smoking. Just one, but note I’m actually asking for a study, not a fact sheet, not a diatribe from an advocacy group, not someone’s opinion. Just a study.

    If you really want to make your case, you could try citing a couple that show actual harm from the low levels of exposure that would result from having well-ventilated smoking areas indoors as well. Come on, cain’t be all THAT hard…. there are thousands of them, right?

    – MJM

  • LDBrigade

    MJM, I must say…
    for a person who has gotten a bachelor degree’s in “Peace Studies” and did a doctoral fellowship at UPenn in “Peace Research,” you’re not so “peaceful” yourself. (Talkin’ the talk, much??)

    I don’t know about you, but I rather like the pink lungs on the left:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EvZPNndO0AU/S8gu2t3FH5I/AAAAAAAAAOk/5zGZqimmp8Q/s1600/11257767.JPG

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Hello LD! I see you’ve done a bit more homework than Yalie13 at least! :) Don’t let me mislead you though: I did not complete the doctorate and wouldn’t want to give you that impression. I’m afraid I’m simply a rather plebian Bachelor.

    I think however, if you review Yalie’s first posting that you’ll find my response fairly appropriate. And that’s quite a cute picture you link to, but I’d wager you don’t *actually* know what it’s a picture of. The lung on the right looks more like that of a coal miner than a smoker, although at least it looks fairly human. Antismokers like to frighten kids with pig lungs treated with tar, did you know that? They figure it’s worth it to “make the point” and hey, what’s a little lying along the way if you’re a card-carrying member of the Great Antismoking Crusade, right?

    – MJM

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Btw, I just noticed that impressive graph showing a majority in favor of a total campus ban. At least they were honest enough to note that the survey was “informal” although a note indicating that if they had just *happened* to query two folks who felt the opposite way instead of two folks who didn’t, that the “majority” would have become a minority. Also might have been nice if the survey had included an option of “Providing smokers with some comfortable, separately ventilated indoor areas “separate but proportionately equal to those provided nonsmokers” so as to reduce their presence around doorways and walkways on campus.”

    Of course that might have spoiled the desired outcome.

    – MJM

  • geneb

    Poor Yale Daily News is under attack from a tiny but active cabal of out-of-state pro-smoking activists. There are websites out there where fanatics alert each other to vulnerable message boards they can invade, or online polls they can warp. Google marbee. Google carol2000 and/or her links to the site of one carol as thomson. As others have noted, they are diehard conspiracy theorists, yes.

    Then there’s this McFadden character, the online stalker who attacks message boards around the world. No site may dare to post anything about smoking and expect to be free from a visit from McF, descending from his search engine and hijacking the site so he can “brand” his book title on it, and post links to his and his pals’ websites. (This raises their google rankings, as it appropriates the good name and reputation of normal sites like the YDN.) Last I googled his book title, I came up with over 14,000 links(!), many if not most posted by McF himself on the innocent message boards of regular sites. This is “viral marketing.”

    He wants “substantive criticism,” indeed. The Flat Earth Society’s Charles K. Johnson would have LOVED a “debate” too. It would have validated his position as at least debate-worthy. Well, it wasn’t, and McF’s position isn’t, and so, no one has paid the least attention to either one. For if you fell for their challenges, you would of course argue endlessly. If all of medical science couldn’t convince them, what chance would any normal person have?

    But this cabal’s activities could have even more dire consequences than a despoiled message board where locals have to deal with the spam rather than holding their own discussions, as has happened here. Richard Dawkins has a great precis of the damage this sort of anti-science PR/fanaticism might do. Check out pp 3-4 of “The Greatest Show on Earth.”

  • kcall

    MJM just got pwnt by geneb. Shame on you, Mr. Michael McFadden, for littering this thread with your garbage links and a subtle advertisement for your book. But I guess I can forgive you… I know it’s the nicotine talking, not you.

    Please have a veterinarian screen your “very noisy cat and a very quiet squirrel” for cancer ASAP (assuming you routinely smoke indoors while they’re around). I understand that you don’t take your physical health seriously, but just remember: your pets didn’t have a say!

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Apologies to Yale for visiting the hoary wrath of GeneB on them. He’s been making a bit of career of following several Free Choice posters around the net with various boilerplate attacks about cabals and such for a while now. You could try googling his name but he changes it a lot. He never discusses the topics of the threads but simply lobs Ad Hominems to try to clog up the discussion boards and destroy any reasonable discussion. In a classroom setting he’d be sent down to the principal’s office, but in this setting it’s best to simply ignore him after identifying what he is.

    kcall, “pwnt” sheesh… talk about obscure! LOL! At least you did a bit of research for your post, but your comment about “littering the thread” with “garbage links” and advertisement shows some sloppiness. In roughly a thousand words of posting in six posts, I cited my book once, as identification and so that I could not be accused of “hiding a competing interest,” and I provided a single link to a freely available 20 page booklet that Yale Free Choice activists could use on their campus to fight the well-funded ban proponents.

    Meanwhile I see neither Yalie nor the ex professor have returned to try to defend themselves. I’d expected something of a better showing from an Ivy League school. Heh… maybe there are some brighter bulbs burning over at Harvard?

    – MJM

  • townieexprof

    Here is an article in the NYTimes addressing the question of campus smoking.
    As I predicted…last week.
    Just sayin…
    ;)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/nyregion/25smoke.html?hpw

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    It’s possible that TOWNIEEXPROF didn’t see my invitation above so I’ll point up to it here after capitalizing his handle. :) Townie, please see my post above, at Jan 23rd, 7:17pm.

    And given some of your statements in this thread I have a particular question to ask you since you have identified yourself as a past or present physician: Can you please name a few studies that show that exposure to outdoor smoke such as would be commonly encountered on Yale’s campus by people actually poses any clinically or statistically significant risk to their health?

    Or is that all just supposition and extrapolation?

    Please note: I’m asking for some actual scientific studies that are readily available for examination and that you believe you can defend. I don’t believe there are any, but I invite you to look and support your position.

    – MJM

  • yalie13

    MJM, you have no idea what the campus environment is here so you have no authority to comment about it.

    This new policy will make it far more avoidable for students to not inhale second-hand smoke. Plain and simple.
    A lot of smoking stations are right next to entrances of libraries, dining halls, classrooms, and other frequently trafficked buildings, forcing everyone passing by to inhale unhealthy toxins. There’s more to it than just that, but seriously go find another community to bother.

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Heehee… I guess Yalie13 has given his answer to my challenge that he’d be unable to “cite and defend a single published scientific study that shows actual harm to people from outdoor smoking. (OR) try citing a couple that show actual harm from the low levels of exposure that would result from having well-ventilated smoking areas indoors as well.”

    Of course it’s possible that Yale simply doesn’t have the research resources that would allow him to find any such studies. I’ll admit, I was never able to find any at U of PA…. but then I’m not the one claiming such things exist, now am I?

    – MJM

  • geneb

    I know I really should let McF’s increasingly snide remarks dangle on their own petards as perfect examples of his self-exposed repulsiveness, of how fast his opening faux bonhomie can descend into the mean-spirited snark-fest we now see.

    Just trolls, I know, he’s an attention-whore, responding just encourages him. But still . . .

    >>Apologies to Yale for visiting the hoary wrath of GeneB on them. He’s been making a bit of career of following several Free Choice posters around the net

    Apologies to Yale for me(!) It must be Backwards Day in McFadden-Land! It’s he & his pals who have made flooding message boards their career. Their “free choice” is to spam, to market, to troll, to graffitti-tag, to fax-blast, call it what you will, to steam-shovel their swill onto every board they can, to flog their sites indiscriminately, to sear their brands into the flesh of tens of thousands of boards. No apologies for that? Follow them? They’re everywhere. That’s the whole point of their campaign, isn’t it? Follow?? Please, someone tell me: how do you _avoid_ these obnoxious, ubiquitous webbugs?

    Ad Hominem, he sez. Huh? Any aspersions I cast on McF stem from what he _does_. Addressing relevant personal conduct is not ad hominem–especially when the behavior is done thousands of times. (Geez, where was the oh-so-scientifical McF educated?? How very proud that institution must be to count among its alumni today’s Charles K. Johnson.) In fact, McF’s incessant, seemingly full-time posting virtually defines him as a man. Certainly as a salesman.

    I also love how he protests that he only posted his brand once. He may have changed his ways here, but I know of at least 1 site where he posted his brand 6 times in his message trolls.

    McF’s definition of “reasonable discussion” is HIS discussion. Wherever he intrudes, he demands total control of the board–you can see it right here, from his first invasive post to his last facetious importunity.

    And I do discuss the topic of this thread, the one McF himself introduced: him & his book. I thought that’s what he wanted. It’s the same theme he hammers everywhere he goes, no matter the story, the kind of site, or the location in the world–the same thing on over 14,000 sites. He couches it in language that may con some sites that forbid commercial posts, but essentially, his ceaseless, implacable spamming is an ad campaign with a single, consistent, overriding message: BUY MY BOOK

    The more mentions pumped out, the more it’ll show up on Google searches, the more chances of a sale. It’s the first rule of marketing. Some boards have started enforcing the “no advertising” part of their terms of service. I’ve noticed on many that there are revised rules & a renewed diligence by webmasters removing postings & decrying the misuse of their boards. I can’t help but think it’s because of the wholesale spamming of the likes of McF, marbee, & their ilk. I know it is in at least 1 case.

  • geneb

    Oh, and note McF’s latest: his snide academic slights and his Harvard troll — ew. It’s always unpleasant to witness his vituperative nature once again oozing out from behind his mask. And all because some people have, you know, _things to do_ and have dared to commit the unforgivable sin of ignoring him and his BS. What a d_k. (based on his behavior).

    So I’ll just note that in 2009, Harvard expanded its no-smoking policy to its entire Longwood medical campus, including Harvard Medical School, the Harvard School of Dental Medicine, and the Harvard School of Public Health.

    Look: if McF hasn’t the slightest qualm about coming in from out of state and, on its own site, insulting an entire institution, its faculty and students, imagine what happens to some poor normal local who dissents from his dogma–and on her own home-town newspaper message board. That’s what I find despicable.

    He owes “apologies to Yale,” alright. And to all humans.

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    I’m a Dalek? Now *that’s* an odd one.

    I’d been hoping for a somewhat more on-topic ( As in reference to “Yale Debates Smoking” at the top of the page) response from some of the Yale folks about some of the scientific research examples I offered for examination or perhaps some presentation of sound counter-examples, but I have to admit it’s always fun to read Gene’s postings. I’d apologize for all the links to Amazon and other book-selling sites I’ve offered here, but at the moment I can’t find any. Of course my eyes may not be as sharp as Gene’s.

    Well, apologies again folks, but let’s try to stay on topic despite the sideshow and actually discuss some of the specific science, evidence, and studies showing harm from outdoor smoking or separately ventilated smoking rooms that could reduce/eliminate those annoying “smokers near doorways” concerns. (Wow! Maybe I *do* try to control the internet! I must have Al Gore tied up in my basement! LOL!)

    – MJM

  • geneb

    >>I’d been hoping for a somewhat more on-topic ( As in reference to “Yale Debates Smoking” at the top of the page)

    Right. “YALE debates Smoking.” Yale. Not “McFADDEN Tells Yale How to Debate Smoking.” Subhead: “When Yale Ignores Spamming Interloper, He Insults It.” Of course. McF doesn’t care about Yale, it’s just another stop on his world tour.

    >>let’s try to stay on topic despite the sideshow

    The nerve. The unmitigated gall. McFadden introduced the sideshow, and now wants to remain ringmaster. Trying to climb back into the center of the ring (always has to get the last word/message post), he craves the attention, desperately needs it–but only on HIS terms.

    He’d like to control the conversation about his book, that’d be fine, no mincing around about it being off-topic then; but law students will recognize that he opened the door on that subject, so now the grotesque personal Freak Show he introduced is fair game for anyone.

  • DSilverLion

    I’m one of those out of state people defending Yale’s smokers. It is not an attack on the nonsmokers. It is because we at Stark State, are being asked to comment about the smoking policies on our campus as well. Mine is in Ohio, and there already is a statewide “smoking ban in public places” being enforced. State backed Miami U has already violated the right of hundreds with their policy changes.That right is the right to choose. I’m telling you all this because even the nonsmokers will lose some right or liberty they care about if this thing goes through. It’s also more than just that. Yale is one of the most recognizable university names in the world. It may set a precident in policies throughout the univerity universe. This is less about health, litter, pollution, or social contacts. It is about the right to make a simple choice. If the college banned automobiles so they could make money on a campus bus and shuttle system, would you bewilling to tolerate it? Would you still smuggle alcohol into your dorm if they imposed campus prohibition? Video games? Sex? Try to look down your timeline a few years and see where this can lead. You will see many rights you now enjoy, disappear before your eyes.

  • Michael_J_McFadden

    ::re-adjusting my unmitigated gall levers…::

    DSilverLion: check out the finances behind whatever groups are pushing the ban on your campus. Some of the big national organizations are very involved in pushing these right now as campuses were evidently one of the hot topics at their last biennial conference. See my post above at 9:37 on Jan. 22nd for more infomation and a helpful link to printable brochure you can use at Stark. Also feel free to email me at Cantiloper on the aol system for more help! :)

    Still no response from either Yalie13 or ExTownieProf I see. As they have obviously discovered there simply do not exist ANY studies showing any real degree of harm from the levels and durations of exposure to outdoor smoking that are being discussed. From a health perspective there is absolutely NO medical or scientific basis for pushing outdoor smoking bans on campuses: it’s purely a social engineering move designed to push the students into dancing the proper steps and following the Pied Piper.

    – MJM

  • Michael_J_McFadden

    Interesting. Over a month has gone by, not a word in defense of the ban by either of its two biggest defenders (Evidently neither of them were able to find even a single decent study out of the supposed “thousands” that would show any actual physical harm from the levels and durations of smoke exposure found on Yale’s campus today.) and not another story about it in the campus paper.

    Does that mean that the proposal for the ban has been dropped?

    Or does it simply mean that the ban pushers are planning to bring it in under “stealth” mode with no further open discussion of its justification?

    My guess is the latter option, unless some students make some noise.

    – MJM

  • geneb

    >>that mean that the proposal for the ban has been dropped?

    No, it means no one can be bothered to “debate” an out-of-state book salesman spamming the globe.

    Why would they? It would just give you an unwarranted credibility. You’d say, “Oh, look–I debated the issue at Yale!” To be followed inevitably with, “And guess what? I WON!”

    Of course you did, poor child.

    And your next book will be “God and Man and Spam at Yale.”

  • tom4444

    Smoke free campus policies are just another way of pushing those who smoke out of an education. The smokers have already been pushed outside. Talk about a perfect example of bullying the minority. Only an idiot would believe outside smoking (with the small amount of it going on) has any health considerations to non-smokers. Does it ever strike anyone’s biased mind that those who smoke can breath it in 100% over 70yrs long???

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Heh… no big surprise that Gene stopped back a couple of months later to take another swing. He always hopes I won’t stop back to see his mudpies.

    Tom, if you research the basis for the smoking bans you’ll find that the EPA’s estimate on the harm of working in a place with smoking comes out to about one extra lung cancer for every 40,000 worker-years of exposure. A while ago on another college board where I was discussing this I took the time to figure out how that might translate in terms of the average smoke exposure one might get on a campus where smoking was allowed. Now remember that the EPA estimate is barely tenable in and of itself: they cherry picked their studies and they had to move the confidence interval down to 90% instead of the usually demanded 95%. But EVEN IF you accept it as gospel and then adapt it to outdoor campus smoking, you’d have to be a student at Yale for 320 *MILLION* years to produce one case of lung cancer (statistically).

    I’ve heard of perpetual grad students… but that’s kind of pushing it, even for Yale!


    :>

    Michael J. McFadden

    Author of “Dissecting Antismokers’ Brains” (In case anyone is wondering what the Q geneb is blabbering about from 40 posts up the thread…)

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    So is the “debate” still debating?

    Or have the powers that be at Yale simply decided to take the “sneak” approach and announce a ban as being already decided when September rolls around?

    If anyone knows, you’re welcome to let me know at Cantiloper on the AOL system.

    :?
    MJM

  • MichaelJMcFadden

    Well, it’s now August. Anyone at Yale care to update me as to the status of what’s going on with your ban? Have they dropped it for now, or are they indeed just going to sneak it in as a done deal and to Hades with what anyone thinks?

    As noted above, email me at Cantiloper if you have any info.

    – MJM

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