Part 2 of 2: Many science majors don’t last four years

This article doesn’t surprise me at all – my own experience was that many of my classmates in my major left (in spite of loving science). I think there are several reasons for this. With the exception of more advanced classes, the intro science classes are a crapshoot in terms of having good professors and TAs. Even though I majored in MB&B, I would only place 2 or 3 of the classes I took for my major in my top ten list for my time at Yale. There were many times when I thought about quitting and simply majoring in history, for which I took almost enough classes to double major in. I stuck with the major not because I loved everything about it, but because I loved doing research and felt MB&B was great preparation for continuing on in grad school. There are a few things I think the Yale administration could do to limit attrition:

1) Give 1 full credit for lab courses per #1′s comment. It’s totally unfair that lab courses merit only 0.5 credit. They’re a substantial time and work commitment (more so than many humanities lectures courses) and grading can be very subjective thanks to the occasional bitter or overly relaxed TA. I’ve never heard a good explanation from the administration as to why they think labs should only be 0.5 credit.

2) While the shuttle system has vastly improved since my freshman year, all of our classes are still on a hill (or in some cases at the med school). There should be a few more buses (including a direct one that only goes from the med school to science hill).

3) Strongly encourage research experiences for freshmen and sophomores. This should go without saying, but when you get hands-on lab experience and have a real project, you’re probably going to be way more enthusiastic about science. Bette facilitating research experiences for underclassmen could cut down attrition. This means that profs need to be encouraged to hire undergrads also.

4) Consider moving a few of the intro classes to central campus. I realize this would be tough, particularly for the profs (as they work up on science hill), but it would be helpful I think.

5) If you don’t want to make labs worth more, consider cutting the number of labs required for a major. Losing whole afternoons, sometimes two or three times a week, is frustrating in terms of extracurriculars and in terms of taking other courses.

I don’t see how a shift in medical schools towards “skills” rather than specific courses is going to fix the premed problem with organic chemistry. I don’t know any biochemistry course of any rigor that doesn’t require organic chemistry as a prerequisite, so actually premeds may have to take more chem courses to qualify.

I wholeheartedly agree with number 1, there is no reason a half-credit course should require more work than a full credit course.

These stats are probably not as bad as they appear. The great attribute of the Yale system is the opportunity to change majors during the 4 years here. Yes, it does result in 46% of science students switching out but its much better than having 46% of the students being upset that they can’t get out of the engineering school and being miserable for 4 years.

On another note, I knew one english major who became a biomedical engineer. That would be a good article to pursue

Build a real bike lane from central campus to Science Hill, and improve the pedestrian crossings.

Right now you have crossings that students call “death traps” at Elm, Grove, and Trumbull. The new Trumbull bridge won’t help since it is built like an interstate highway crossing, not an intersection appropriate to a walkable city.

That would eliminate the distance perception and this would change.

Where are our University planners? Don’t they have a clue?

#4 is absolutely correct. Too many pre-meds complain about organic chemistry simply because it requires more work than they’d like to put in. When they don’t receive the grade they want on a silver platter, all the sudden it’s the professor’s fault, or Yale’s fault, or anybody’s else’s fault. Also, it’s impossible to learn biochemistry without organic chemistry, so “only” requiring biochemistry makes no sense.

No, premeds complain because they indeed put in the time for Organic Chemistry, and despite their efforts, they are graded mercilessly. There’s no reason why we should struggle much more in the sciences for the same grades easier earned in other fields. That struggle gets unbearable when classes are poorly taught and organized. Just like all Yale students, we want to be involved in extracurricular activities, and some of us have jobs. The incredible (and sometimes unnecessary) demand that science classes expect of us relative to other Yale courses is unfair, in my perspective.

Dimeglio’s lab really is quite good. The intro chem lab professors could learn a lot from her. I wish they would charge her with redesigning the intro chem labs.

I think DiMeglio should also take charge of General Physics lab. I have yet to speak with a student that has actually enjoyed it.

Reading all these negative comments has been rather depressing. I just wanted to say that 90% of the science classes I have taken have had professors that were as good, if not better, than my non-science professors. I have yet to encounter a science professor who was unwilling to schedule time to meet with struggling students and patiently explain key concepts in different ways until everyone understood them. Furthermore, most of my classes are mind-blowing, and the problem sets are enlightening, challenging, and occasionally, inspirational. I am immensely happy as a science major at Yale and am completely satisfied with my experience so far.

I agree with most of your points but I have commentary on intro courses. The fact that most intro courses are bad around the country is irrelevant. This is Yale University. We pay $40,000 for tuition. We don’t merely expect excellent courses, we demand it! I think the student evaluations should be taken to heart when considering employing professors. Finally, when new professors are hired, employers should try to access past student evaluations–that way no horrible professors sneak into our great university.

My non-science GPA is better than my science GPA, even though I’m a science major. If you look at any Med school app stats you’ll see non-science GPA is always higher.

1) Science hill sucks.
2) I don’t learn anything from science lecture (whereas social science and humanities lectures tend to be very good).
3) LABS. HALF CREDIT? It’s as much work as my int. micro and history class combined.

Yale really needs to address lab credit and quality of professors. (most are great researchers but bad lecturers)

“Furthermore, most of my classes are mind-blowing, and the problem sets are enlightening, challenging, and occasionally, inspirational.”

Okay, seriously, which one of you faculty wrote this? Fess up.

If you are a student, you are a complete lapdog.

1) I completely agree with #26.

2) I am surprised at the intensity of negative responses to this article. But it does make sense. In my premed track, I have witnessed much discontent in many courses, yet the students NEVER approach their professors, asking them to slow down lectures, to speak more clearly, to tell professors that they are not making sense, to offer suggestions over ways to improve the course.

Why? Quite simply premeds are often cowardly to speak up to the professor at the cost of their grade. So students complain to the TA or in evaluations, both of which have no impact on how the professor teaches, or in course improvement. This thread of responses represents the release of much tension against science courses that has brewed for years!

The moment learning becomes more about grades, and the moment teaching dynamics and improvements remain stagnant is the moment when departmental reform must be made.

Seagraves, I KNOW you are planning some sort of departmental or curriculum reform–that is why you have those lunch meeting with professors. Please realize that this issue is less about curriculum and MORE about the accountability of professors to their students! Once the professors are receptive to their students, once they pay attention to reviews, to the TAs, and not so much into their own research and convenient teaching styles will the curriculum/learning excel.

Same kind of double standard exists at other universities too. I advise many premed students, and I find that science majors tend to have lower GPA than humanities majors by a lot. There is simply too much grade inflation in humanities. A common scheme for many humanities major premeds, who can afford it, is to take all of their science courses during their Post-Bac programs, which tend to have grade inflation. It’s sad since many medical trainees now days have so little interest or training for even the most rudimentary understanding of the science behind the practice of medicine. A recent fad among med school applicants is to do “global health” – as if doing orthopedic surgery in Manhattan will somehow help the folks in the third world!

What is the distribution by race and by gender? This may provide some insight about the “brain drain” and how to address it.

@10) I agree completely. I cycle up the hill almost every day, and it makes getting to and from science classes so much easier. But I HATE the Prospect St bike lane (bike lane? I should say parking lot), and those junctions – often with heavier pedestrian traffic than anywhere – are ridiculous.

@21) Part of the point is that science majors get to pick and work with professors they like, doing senior research and stuff. I’ve been working with a professor for over a year now, and it’s great. Even more attention than you’d get in a seminar.
Really, the solution -is- still to make the intro classes suck less. They’re the ‘face’ of the departments, they’re the first things most people take (and what undecided freshmen will take when trying to figure out what to do). Some departments realise this and put amazing professors on the intro courses – consider Intro Psych or Intro Political Philosophy. But most of the science departments (and some others – some intro econ classes are pretty bad) don’t do this. It goes somewhat beyond just the intro courses, to most of the pre-med required courses.

Which ties in to what #28 said. The curricula aren’t really the problem. Basic science doesn’t change, and people still need to learn that stuff. But professors need to realise that just because they have a captive audience in the form of poor pre-meds (serves them right, IMO), doesn’t mean they don’t need to care about their teaching. It’s amazing how -consistent- the terrible reviews some courses get are over time – you’d think professors would try and improve things.

What’s funny is that I think I actually learned more in courses that were less rigorous. They give you breathing space, they allow you to deeply digest the material, and the course becomes something other than another obstacle to overcome, that minimum grade to achieve. We are all adults. We pay tuition. We are to learn what we desire. If you lighten the load, allow for exploration, students will get more into the subject, and learn better for themselves. Finally, is it ALWAYS necessary to have assessment in science courses be examinations? This caters to those that can regurgitate information. Why not involve more papers or presentations? The ability to learn information and then synthesis conclusions is a more advanced form of learning. Without the stress of examinations, it compels us to learn the material and communicate it in the written form and verbally. Tie our lecture material to things relevant in our lives. By giving exams, you severely limit our freedom to learn. We learn Scott Miller Orgo (be honest, who studied off of the old exams), we learn Zeller Physics, we learn Slack Biology. We are limited to what the professors want us to know. Professors should be guides….guiding us through our own exploration of the sciences.

I CHALLENGE the Yale science departments and Seagraves to add these dynamics to the science curriculum. Add papers and presentations. Make professors educational guides, not dictators. Or perhaps you will choose convenience, and the status quo? If so, fine. Go do your research then. Good bye.

These comments MUST be submitted to Dean Seagraves. Change must happen or science will fall at Yale!

I was a double major—one of my majors was in a science and the other was in the humanitites. WITHOUT QUESTION, the humanitites professors were more organized and were kinder, better teachers, and nicer human beings; they cared more about the students than almost all of my science professors combined. Science at Yale is pathetic. After Yale, I have taken courses at a state school where the teaching was far superior and the subject was no less difficult. Yale Administration and deans overseeing science education initiatives, please get with it and actually DO SOMETHING about this, rather than continue with the usual lameness & inexcusable complacency. Your investors will smile on you, and so will your students (gasp!).