Pollak and Yoffie: A different forum needed for Goldstone

Tomorrow, Justice Richard Goldstone will give the George Herbert Walker, Jr. Lecture in International Studies. In the name of free speech, we welcome Justice Goldstone to campus, but we do not think this lecture provides an appropriate forum for his visit.

Justice Goldstone is a distinguished jurist who admirably served on South Africa’s Constitutional Court and as the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda. But the Justice is now most closely identified with his infamous investigation into the war Israel fought against Hamas last year, published as the Goldstone Report.

The report is a product of the United Nations Human Rights Council, a body that is used by some of the world’s worst human rights abusers to deflect attention from their own authoritarianism and brutality. The Council’s membership includes Cuba, Egypt, Pakistan, Russia, and Saudi Arabia and is obsessively anti-Israel: In its short existence, it has issued more condemnations of Israel than of the 192 United Nations member states combined.

Goldstone accepted a mandate from this council to investigate Israel, and only Israel, over its attack last year on the internationally-recognized terrorist group Hamas. The report he produced is a perversion of human rights and international law. It treats Hamas’ allegations with meticulous credulity, but Israeli claims with flippant skepticism. It is riddled with factual errors and twisted accounts of the war. The members of Goldstone’s staff have long histories of anti-Israel political activism. The report makes frequent and unsupported editorial declarations against Israel and included testimony from residents of Gaza who feared retaliation from Hamas. Justice Goldstone himself has admitted that nothing in the report would be admissible as credible evidence in a court of law.

When it was released four months ago, the report was vigorously condemned across the political spectrum. The Obama administration’s Special Envoy for Middle East Peace, George Mitchell, called it “one-sided and deeply flawed.” United Nations ambassador Susan Rice called it “unbalanced, one-sided and basically unacceptable.” The State Department expressed “very serious concerns” with the way the investigation was conducted and the conclusions it reached. The ranking Republican on the House Foreign Affairs Committee declared: “In addition to its endemic anti-Israel bias, the Goldstone Report contains ominous implications for the future right of the U.S., Israel and other sovereign democracies to defend themselves.”

The Wall Street Journal condemned the Goldstone Report as “a new low” for the United Nations while the Economist called it “deeply flawed” and “a thimbleful of poison.” The Washington Post editorialized that the Goldstone Report made a “mockery of impartiality” (“War Unchecked,” Nov. 15). The Post also noted that the Report concluded, “on scant evidence, that ‘disproportionate destruction and violence against civilians were part of a deliberate policy’ by Israel [while] at the same time, it pronounced itself unable to confirm that Hamas hid its fighters among civilians, used human shields, fired mortars and rockets from outside schools, stored weapons in mosques, and used a hospital for its headquarters, despite abundant available evidence.” Even B’Tselem, the left-wing Israeli human rights organization, denounced Goldstone’s claims of Israeli targeting of civilians.

We could go on, but it is unnecessary: The Goldstone Report is viewed as neither legitimate nor scrupulous by serious scholars, lawyers, politicians or activists.

It is thus astonishing that Yale would attempt to legitimize Goldstone by awarding him the Walker Lecture — an honor that has been bestowed on George Mitchell, Madeleine Albright and David Lange — and thereby take sides in a bitter controversy. The Goldstone Report is held in such poor esteem that not even the good name of Yale University can rescue it. Instead, Yale’s reputation will be tarnished in its attempt to laud and legitimize such a discredited figure.

We believe that Justice Goldstone should come to Yale. But if he is to make an officially sanctioned appearance on campus, it should be in a forum befitting the man and his work: a debate in which his alleged judicial impartiality can be challenged — not a coronation that seeks to sanitize his work and shield him from much-deserved criticism.

Noah Pollak and Adam Yoffie are, respectively, second-year students in the Graduate Program in International Relations and the Law School.

Comments

  • AMEN

    This had to be said – thank you both

  • Ellie Light

    The pro-Zionists are in hyper-panic mode now that their shrill, high-octane hasbara can no longer be used to trick the international community into looking the other way on the IDF’s litany of war crimes, so they have to attack the courageous Judge Goldstone.

    Not once does Pollak or Yoffie actually refute the specific allegations made by Judge Goldstone. Instead, they whimper about the one-sided nature of the report. This is perhaps because the IDF killed 1,400 Palestinians — the majority of which were innocent women and children — while 3 Israeli citizens lost their lives. The IDF used US-taxpayer-funded US-designed state-of-the-art weaponry such as flesh-melting white phosphorous bombs, and limb-shearing DIME cube missiles that amputated arms and legs from schoolchildren.

    Fortunately, the students of Yale are fully informed through the blogosphere and can see through Pollak and Yoffie’s thinly-veiled Israel-can-do-no-wrong pseudo-victimology. A random google search of ISRAEL GAZA WAR CRIMES will retrieve a terrifying litany of evidence supporting Goldstone’s findings.

  • PC ’10

    “The Council’s membership includes Cuba, Egypt, Pakistan, Russia, and Saudi Arabia…”

    Other seats in the 47 member UNHRC are occupied by the USA, the United Kingdom, France, Japan, India, South Korea, Argentina, Brazil, Italy and Norway. It is headed by Belgium. There are many other countries on the council as well, some that could not as easily be labeled “good” or “bad” as you seem to invite us to do.

    If you object to this man’s political beliefs, that’s fine, but there is no reason to try to deceive us about the make-up of the council. Do you really think we’re that dumb?

  • Really at YLS?

    Interesting how you’re villifying a man that is a self-proclaimed Zionist, a Jew, a South African freedom fighter, a reputable justice, and a big supporter of Israel’s for writing a report on human rights abuses committed by the State of Israel. If he can’t do it, I’m assuming no one can, in your book?

    Mind you, the report also criticized Hamas, and mind you, Israel has yet to launch its own proper inquiry. B’Tselem, whose position you misrepresent, has just today reiterated its call for ” an independent and impartial investigation mechanism to thoroughly examine the allegations raised regarding violations of international law during Operation Cast Lead.”

    This is partisan, that makes a mockery of our (readers’) intellect. I’m sure you could do better.

  • Strange

    Say what you will about court processes, the credibility of witnesses, etcetera. But the unbelievable conclusion of your piece is that Israel did no wrong to the Palestinians when it attacked Gaza last winter.

    Now, stop pulling my leg and come back to planet Earth please, thanks. There are about 1,400 graves awaiting an explanation.

  • BBSNews

    Wow. Dershowitz himself could have written that screed of nonsense…

    In any case, I challenge the authors to post the so-called factual inaccuracies in the Goldstone Report.

    Since no one has managed to do that yet, I anxiously await a detailed response.

    The report, had you even read it, would have shown you that not only were Palestinian militant groups investigated, it also found that they had committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

    Indeed, even the Palestinian Authority did not escape the commission’s report unscathed.

    Nor did a broader history of the conflict, and the censorship imposed by both sides was also examined.

    In short, these two students need to actually read the report, and then retract the article above and replace it with something that is actually factual.

    It was an extraordinary mistake to have even let this column by the editor.

    Students should be taught that if they are going to engage in mud-slinging and accusing others of misstating facts, they had better be doubly sure they are not straying from the facts themselves.

  • Ellie Light, sockpuppet

    It looks like Baghdad Bob is reading the YDN.

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  • Barbara Oberman

    Is this the same Ellie Light, suggested by
    Fox News today, to be an Obama worker?
    SHe appeared in over 60 papers all over
    America pro government
    until one paper sussed her out. Ellie Light you have been found out – whoever you really
    are.Do tell us.

  • friend of israel

    Well said and brilliantly written. I’m glad someone is speaking out against this.

  • alex

    jews kill palestineans for good of israel.
    jews say it is their right.
    germans killed jews for good of germany.
    jews say it was not right.
    is it palestinean right to kill jews?

  • @11

    Look at it this way: Both the Palestinians and the Israelis have a right to fight for their way of life, and to kill each other in the process. And they do.

    But we shouldn’t fault the Israelis for being better at it.

  • Acquaintance of Israel

    I do not see where in this article the writers conclude that Israel committed no war crimes during the Gaza War. They are merely saying that this report was a disgrace and so is its author. Israel has, in the past (in both the first and second Lebanon wars) reviewed its own actions and policies and concluded that they were violations of human rights, subsequently changing their ways. What other army has ever done or would do so much to prevent civilian deaths? It is very possible that Israel committed war crimes last year. But this report was an absolute embarrassment, and says more about Goldstone and the Human Rights Council than it does about Israel. How about a balanced report? While it matters that there is a disproportionate death toll (and it is something that Israel must be taken to task for), let’s not pretend that Hamas did not do all it could to target and try to kill Israeli citizens, while purposely putting the citizens of Gaza in deliberate harm to increase the death tolls.

  • PROUD ZIONIST!

    GREAT ARTICLE! Keep on telling the truth! FREE GILAD!

    Insha’allah Israel will continue to kill each and every single one of these Palestinian WAR CRIMINALS that fire Kassams at Israeli population centers with the SOLE DESIRE to murder as many Jewish women and children as possible! NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!

    Goldstone distortions:
    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736

  • A Balanced Account

    Zionism has done no favor to the minds of its supporters, which have been so dulled by blind patriotism and internalized racism that they cannot even handle the well supported documentation of the devastation of Israel’s last war.

    Those calling for a more “balanced” account believe that “balance” is a measure of conclusions, rather than methodology. In fact, the Goldstone report meticulously studies both parties to this war, to the extent that evidence is available.

    It is true that much of the report is devoted to Israel. However, that is a reflection not of bias or unfair methodology, but rather of the fact that much of the warfare, destruction, killing, and inhumanity was carried out by Israel. The authors of this article want to compensate for the lack of casualties or damage caused by Hamas with their own partisan or moral opposition to that organization. Unfortunately for them, that is not how rational discourse works.

    We cannot be equally outraged about Hamas’ home-made rockets, which killed roughly a dozen Israelis, as we are about Israel’s state of the art military, which killed almost 1,500 Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of whom were civilians. In fact, Israel is all the more culpable on this level — Hamas rockets are indiscriminate by nature, they cannot be directed accurately even if Hamas militants wanted them to be. Israeli weapons on the other hand are as precise as weapons can be, yet they still manage to destroy UN facilities, educational universities, elementary schools, hospitals, and other civilian infrastructure. What gives?

  • A blatant lie

    Why did YDN let this piece print with blatant factual errors? Yoffie, Pollak, and the editors should have done their research.

    This claim is absolutely false: “Goldstone accepted a mandate from this council to investigate Israel, and only Israel, over its attack last year on the internationally-recognized terrorist group Hamas.”

    Actually the text of the UN mandate asks the mission “to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza during the period from 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, whether before, during or after.” http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm

    This obviously includes Hamas as well. Goldstone further elaborates in an interview with Bill Moyers, in which he tells us he explicitly rejected a UN invitation that originally asked him to investigate only Israel:

    BILL MOYERS: And you insisted, as I understand it, that the mandate be changed. I mean, let me read you from the original mandate from the United Nations Human Rights Commission. Quote, “…investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law by the occupying power, Israel, against the Palestinian people, throughout the occupied Palestinian territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip.” Now that’s pretty charged language, Judge. Not a single mention of Hamas or the other militants, who were firing thousands of rockets into Israel. Did that language set off an alarm for you?

    RICHARD GOLDSTONE: No, it led to me refusing the invitation. I was invited on the basis of that, and I refused it. And I thought, that’s the end of it.

    BILL MOYERS: Because the language was charged.

    RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Because it was stacked against Israel, and would have been a one-sided investigation, and I wasn’t prepared, let alone as a Jew, but as a human being, to get involved in investigating under a one-sided mandate. And I refused. And I was then invited by the president of the Human Rights Council to visit with him. And he asked me what I thought would be an even-handed mandate, and I told him, and he said, “Write it out for me.” And I wrote it out. And he said, “Well, that’s the mandate that I’m giving you, if you’re prepared to take it.” Well, it was very difficult to refuse, in that situation, to get a mandate that I’d written for myself.

    BILL MOYERS: What did you want it to say?

    RICHARD GOLDSTONE: That the mandate should cover all crimes committed by both sides, within the context of Operation Cast Lead, whether committed before, during or after the military operations.

    BILL MOYERS: You wanted it directed not just at Israel, but at-

    RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Absolutely.

    BILL MOYERS: -the militants.

    RICHARD GOLDSTONE: Correct.

    For more see: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10232009/transcript1.html

  • UN Watch

    Some statistics may be helpful:

    * The UN Human Rights Council fails to address the world’s worst violations:
    http://www.unwatch.org/atf/cf/%7B6deb65da-be5b-4cae-8056-8bf0bedf4d17%7D/2009%20-%20HOW%20THE%20UNHRC%20ADDRESSED%20THE%20WORLD'S%20WORST%20ABUSERS.DOC

    * More than 75% of UNHRC resolutions are one-sided censure of Israel:
    http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.3820041/

    * Out of 10 UNHRC special sessions on countries, 6 have been against Israel — more than the those for the rest of the world combined:
    http://www.unwatch.org/cms.asp?id=926124&campaign_id=65378

    For more, see http://www.unwatch.org/charts

  • skilled propaganda

    Noah Pollak and Adam Yoffie are committed propagandists on behalf of Israel. They are right, however, that U.S. news outlets and politicians rushed all over themselves to condemn the Goldstone Report. Why Pollak and Yoffie assume this means the report is worth condemning rather than that the U.S. media and govt. are pathetically and hopelessly beholden to a “Israel can do no wrong” agenda is not clear. I rather think the slander of Mr. Goldstone is a tragedy.

    To wit, as a proud American I was horrified by Abu Ghraib. If Israel committed similar acts, I can only imagine that Pollak and Yoffie would start ranting about the provocations of Hamas, the Israeli contributions to science, or some other propaganda talking point. Alas, I don’t have much hope that either of them are reasonable or open to conversation, such is their advocacy on behalf of Israel. Sigh.

  • TELL THE TRUTH!

    Israel kills Palestinian children and Hamas kills Israeli children. The difference is that Israel aims at people with guns, rockets, and bombs. Hamas actually aims at Israeli children. Fair minded people can see the difference!

  • re: tell the truth

    Regarding comment 19, that’s exactly what the Goldstone report is looking into. There are plenty of Israeli soldiers who contradict what you claim. Are you even open to evidence or are you, like Pollak and Yoffie, simple a “Israel right or wrong” propaganda performance artist?

    Here’s a challenge. What’s wrong with this secondary source account from Haaretz?
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

    or these primary source accounts from IDF soldiers who served in Operation Cast Lead:
    http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/index_e.asp

    I expect members of the Yale community to have the critical thinking skills to adjudicate this evidence and respond appropriately. That is, unless they’re bad faith truckers of propaganda such as Pollak and Yoffie.

  • Jewish indoctrination

    We in the U.S. often hear that Arabs raise their children to hate the West and especially the U.S. and Israel. To the extent that this is true, it’s a huge obstacle to peace.

    But you know what else is a problem? The pro-Israel indoctrination that takes place among both Israeli and diaspora Jews. I remember getting drilled with pro-Israel talking points in Hebrew school and last summer I went on a Birthright Israel trip that was one excursion down the propaganda rabbit hole. Worst still, I was horrified by how so many of my fellow Birthright Israel participants – many from top U.S. universities – simply accepted this indoctrination hook, line, and sinker. I would have expected more rigor, intellectually speaking, from Ivy League students. As a result I’ve begun to think that Jewish children raised in such a climate of indoctrination are intellectually and emotionally damaged just as much as Arab and Muslim children who are raised to see Jews and Americans as their eternal enemy. Unfortunately, I see this damage in the tendentious and dishonest account put forth by Pollak and Yoffie.

  • Jewish McCarthyism

    A very nice article on the issue from moment magazine:
    http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/2010/2010-02/201002-Opinion-Pogrebin.html

  • Is this Yale or Berkeley?

    It is kinda funny reading all these intellectual types talk about the Arab/Israeli conflict and this ridiculous report. Both sides have valid claims to the land and there should be a two state solution; maybe if the Palestinian Arabs ever accept peaceful coexistence with the Jewish State of Israel this will happen. Then there will be ONE even smaller Jewish State and twenty-something Arab states, many of which are Muslim states. Of course this does not include the part of historical Palestine that is now called Jordan. But God-forbid the left questions the legitimacy of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

    This conflict is stunningly simple at the most fundamental level. Anyone who reads the Hamas Charter or reads the translations of their speeches knows that they call for GENOCIDE in Arabic while only teasing the lefties with talk of a hunda in English! They seek to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel…and they say so openly. They make NO secret of this. Leftists in the West decide to overlook this point or make excuses for them…as evidenced by these silly comments above that ignore this reality while trying to malign the Zionist enterprise of Jewish liberation and freedom from oppression.

    Israel, since before 1948, has desired NOTHING but peaceful coexistence WHILE exercising their legitimate rights of self-determination in their historical homeland. The “occupation” only exists because Jordan attacked Israel and continues to exist only because the Arabs won’t make difficult compromises for peace. (see Bill Clinton and Dennis Ross’s account of Camp David II or read Prince Bandar’s comments on the subject). FACT: After the 1967 Six Day War, Israel offered to exchange the land it had won for permanent peace with its neighbors. The Arab response was the three No’s. No peace with Israel; no negotiations with Israel; no recognition of Israel.

    This report only makes peace less likely because it makes Israel less willing to take risks for peace. It shows that when a democracy tries to fight back in an asymmetrical war where the other side is fighting dirty, that the world will play into the terrorist hands and allow their win-win game to continue. They win when one of their rockets hit an Israeli kindergarten and they win when Israel fires back at those who fired the rocket and unavoidably kills Palestinian civilians.

    Well I refuse to fall for this! Seldom are thing black and white in this complex world, but a democracy like Israel or America fighting Palestinian terrorists or Al-Qaeda clearly represents an exception to this rule. As a progressive, I think it is pathetic that the left does not have the moral clarity to see this.

  • bbsnews

    #23,

    I too am a progressive, I am registered unaffiliated. And I am appalled at your diatribe.

    Your comment sounds like Dershowitz on steroids writing in FrontPage Magazine.

    So now that we’ve knocked down the intellectualism a bit and introduced more of a NASCAR atmosphere, it might be appropriate to look at the real history rather than the hasbara version you just stuttered through.

    It’s as if the rule of law and the importance of international law and the United Nations is simply not taught in school anymore.

    To even begin to “solve” a conflict, there is one thing above all else that is a requirement and that is a means of truth and reconciliation.

    For you personally, it means brushing up on international law and recognizing that the right of conquest has been dead since WWII and the UN Charter. For Israel it means that passing laws denying the Nakba should be regarded as just as heinous as passing a law that denied the Holocaust.

    In relation to this conflict, UNSC 242 is instructive. It spells out, as do the two peace treaties that Israel has in the region with Egypt and Jordan that acting in accordance with 242 (and 338) is a necessary component to a durable peace.

    This is directly because of a bedrock principle adopted after two World Wars, ‘territory acquired by war is inadmissible’.

    It can be occupied with a legitimate military reason, but it is forbidden, and a grave breach of international law, to transfer the occupying power’s civilians into the occupied territory.

    500,000 so far, prove that Israel does not want peace. It wants the land and resources, and it is religious extremism driving it as well as a stated need to maintain Jewish racial purity in Israel.

    That makes for violent resistance. It is self-fulfilling because Israel wants the land and resources but the Arab Palestinians, no.

    See the Likud Platform, in many ways it is the analog of the Hamas Charter.

  • #23

    I bet poster #23 is not even aware that he/she is spouting hasbara talking points. The entire history of Israel that the poster relays is thoroughly debunked in the historical literature, but I readily accept that it is the version you get on Fox News, in Hebrew School, and Birthright Israel trips. It’s sad, actually.

  • steve bronfman

    To #6;
    “In any case, I challenge the authors to post the so-called factual inaccuracies in the Goldstone Report.”

    Actually many people have listed the many factual inaccuracies of the report, for instance here;

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/12/goldstone-report-inaccuracies-part-24.html

    In 24 parts here;

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/search?q=goldstone+report+inaccuracies

    and here;

    http://www.hosem.org.il/Cast-Lead

    and here;

    -http://www.goldstonereport.org/

  • #24, 25 ???

    Did you even understand #23′s post or are your cognitive skills as weak as your attempt to debate the fact that Hamas calls for the “DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL AND JEWS”.

    Its sad that you would stick up for blood thirsty terrorists.

  • Hamas Charter

    This is the text of the Hamas charter: http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

    It is certainly hard line, but it does not contain the phrase “DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL AND JEWS” at all, like #27′s comment pretends.

    In fact, while the theological underpinnings are highly problematic (the original founders of Hamas viewed their current crisis through the lens of stories from their holy scriptures — one of which is the only reference to killing Jews), it is highly contextualized and it is clear that Hamas’ motives are not anti-Semitism or hatred of the Jewish religion in people, but rather rooted in the situation facing the Palestinian people: the usurpation of their land and the colonization of Zionism.

  • Umm…

    Re Steve Bronfman:

    Your first link claims there is a discrepancy in the number of jobs lost thanks to the destruction of 324 factories. The report, according to your site, claims 40,000 jobs lost, but the original source claims 4,000.

    The horror! This must mean that Israel did not commit war crimes and that every single documented incident in this 500 page report was similarly fabricated!

  • BBSNews

    Steve Bronfman,

    When I wrote “no one has managed to do that yet” I was including the dismissal of those cites as I have read them, I am aware of them, and they are simply not credible sources.

    So sayeth nearly everyone else on the planet who is aware of them except for a choice few, who try to use them as an Appeal to Authority argument.

    It’s usually better received if the authority is actually an authority; but it’s still a logical fallacy.

    I do not think you fully get the gravity of Israel’s current situation.

    Your so-called cites have already been undermined by the state of Israel paying the United Nations $10.5 million for damages suffered during the War on Gaza.

    Not negotiating, not dragging it out, not ignoring it, Israel has officially paid off for the first time in anyone’s collective memory.

    Can you imagine why that might be?

    Is it an admission of responsibility for those videos we all saw of the White Phosphorous being fired upon fleeing civilians in a Gaza UN shelter during the War on Gaza?

    Is it a cash advance of good faith before the UN Security Council finds Israel has not conducted a credible and independently verified investigation? (The deadline rapidly approaches.)

    Is it the first tacit admission that Israel does have some culpability for what it did in Gaza?

    Does it in itself, this payment without quibbling, signify that the Goldstone Report does indeed make credible allegations?

    Indeed it does.

  • BBSNews

    Hamas Charter,

    Here’s the most recent version of the Likud platform (charter) available:

    http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

    Where in part it says:

    “The Palestinians

    Declaration of a State

    A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration.

    Settlements

    The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

    Self-Rule

    The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

    The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.”

    I could go on, but as any objective person can see, the Likud platform is really not much different than the Hamas platform.

    Both largely directed at their own constituents for internal consumption.

  • steve bronfman

    -#29; He (#6) Asked for an example of something factually incorrect in the Goldstone report so I showed him. In this specific example the Goldstone report exaggerates by a factor of 10 March 2009 report compiled by the Palestinian Federation of Industries.

    “The horror! This must mean that Israel did not commit war crimes and that every single documented incident in this 500 page report was similarly fabricated!”

    -Ive just proved his initial contention; “In any case, I challenge the authors to post the so-called factual inaccuracies in the Goldstone Report.” Wrong. Actually much of the report is likewise “similarly fabricated” and has been demonstrably proven so. This is a simple example. The 2009 Palestinian report exists. It states 4,000 yet the Goldstone report makes this 40,000.

  • steve bronfman

    #30;

    “When I wrote “no one has managed to do that yet” I was including the dismissal of those cites as I have read them, I am aware of them, and they are simply not credible sources.”

    -How are they not credible? Why don’t you disprove them then?

    “So sayeth nearly everyone else on the planet who is aware of them except for a choice few, who try to use them as an Appeal to Authority argument.”

    -sentence doesn’t really make sense but facts are facts no matter who chooses to believe them. The majority of the world may believe the Earth is flat but this doesn’t make it so.

    “It’s usually better received if the authority is actually an authority; but it’s still a logical fallacy.”

    -Again this makes no sense. Prove them wrong.

    “I do not think you fully get the gravity of Israel’s current situation.

    Your so-called cites have already been undermined by the state of Israel paying the United Nations $10.5 million for damages suffered during the War on Gaza. ”

    -By paying damages Israel makes exactly the opposite point. Israel proves it is a law abiding country that will pay compensation if wrong. I’m waiting for Hamas to pay damages to Sderot.

    “Not negotiating, not dragging it out, not ignoring it, Israel has officially paid off for the first time in anyone’s collective memory.”

    -Again you’re either ignorant or lying to achieve your objective of demonising Israel. Israel has paid compensation previously (try using google?) For instance; “Israel has paid the U.K. $145,000 for damaging a British war cemetery in the Gaza Strip during an Israel Defense Forces operation in the summer of 2006. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/974149.html

    “Is it an admission of responsibility for those videos we all saw of the White Phosphorous being fired upon fleeing civilians in a Gaza UN shelter during the War on Gaza?”

    -The use of White Phosphorous is not illegal. It was used by the US in Iraq and Afganistan.

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1723

    Is it a cash advance of good faith before the UN Security Council finds Israel has not conducted a credible and independently verified investigation? (The deadline rapidly approaches.)

    -Israel (unlike Hamas) has infact conducted an enquiry the results of which are about to be released. Here is the initial response;

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Initial-response-goldstone-report-24-Sep-2009.htm

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/GazaFacts/Goldstone/

    “Does it in itself, this payment without quibbling, signify that the Goldstone Report does indeed make credible allegations?

    Indeed it does.”

    Again you can have any opinion you like but facts are facts. I’ve already disproved your initial claim that there were no factual mistakes in the Goldstone report. In fact there are many as Alan Deshowitz points out here;

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1542897

  • from #23

    Dear BBSNEWS,

    Sorry I could not reply to your silly comments sooner, but I was busy watching NASCAR. And any comparison to Alan Dershowitz I take as a great compliment…so thank you! When you say the literature debunks my historical accounts I’m assuming you base this on your readings of Chomsky, Finkelstein and last but definitely not least Mr. Pappe? HAHA. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

    Reading your intellectually dishonest comments I’m reminded of that famous quote from the late great Daniel Patrick Moynihan: “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own fact.”

    BBSNews says “Likud platform is really not much different than the Hamas platform.” Oh really? Anyone who takes the time to actually read both documents knows that this is factually not true. It really is an absurd statement and diminishes any credibility that BBSNews might have had. Here are just a few of my favorite genocidal and antisemitic passages from the Hamas Charter that BBSNews is quick to excuse and downplay.

    The Covenant
    of the
    Islamic Resistance Movement
    18 August 1988

    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).” (Preamble)

    “The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). (Article 7)

    “Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.” (Article 32)

    I don’t think you have to be a Likudnick to see that any comparison between the Hamas Charter and the Likud platform is patently absurd on its face.

    Hamas Charter for all to read on Yale’s website:
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

    OK, back to NASCAR for me. Cheers!

  • hamas

    But, some commentators say, the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Yawn.

    Hamas has made is clear time and time again that it can deal in good faith. For instance, rockets stopped flying from Gaza when Israel honored the terms of the cease fire. Oh, you didn’t realize that Operation Cast Lead began after Israel provoked Hamas to begin rocket fire? That the rockets had stopped when a ceasefire was agreed upon and the terms upheld. Why, aren’t you poorly informed!

    Moreover, Hamas has made it clear that they will accept a two-state solution. Even this year they have said it, publicly and repeatedly, too. Maybe, perhaps, if Israel would layoff it daily encroachment and ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem and the West Bank (what Jewish settler extremists – some of them terrorists -see as land titled to them by the Old Testament; not exactly a modern, Enlightenment worldview) the peace process could get somewhere. Oh, I forgot, Israel doesn’t want peace, they want every last bit of the West Bank. Oh again, sorry – I mean the Biblical lands of Judea and Samaria, for which the Jewish people have full title – just look at the Bible. And the Muslims get called religious fanatics!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970807.html

  • HASBARA

    Do you pro-Israel folks consciously propagandize or are you a victim of propaganda and indoctrination? Do you know what Hasbara is?

    Here’s a good vehicle to get into the topic of Hasbara, the story when Frank Luntz’s pro-Israel talking points were embarrassingly leaked:
    http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/07/10/the-israel-projects-secret-hasbara-handbook-exposed/

    Savvy followers of the Israel/Palestinian issue know what hasbara is and what you’re up to, even if you’re not.

    This goes without saying but if you attend Yale, you really ought to be smart enough to think critically and not be a programmed pro-Israel pod. Geez.

    P.S. I love Israel, too. Questioning is not being disloyal.

  • comment #23

    Comment #23 reads:
    “Israel, since before 1948, has desired NOTHING but peaceful coexistence WHILE exercising their legitimate rights of self-determination in their historical homeland.”

    Surely you must be joking? Hahahaha! That’s funny, I real belly buster of a joke. The more serious response to your allegation – laughable by any look at the scholarly literature – is Avi Shlaim’s authoritative study The Iron Wall. I suggest you read it.

    http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126

  • # 23 says

    I find it amusing that if you state a fact or opinion on this comment board that happens to tarnish Hamas or Palestinians that it is automatically hasbara; not that there is anything wrong with hasbara. I state facts and #36 summarily dismisses them as hasbara instead of having the intellectual courage to respond to the merits of my argument.

    The 1948 War and attempted Arab extermination of the Jews is emblematic of what the real problem has been ever since. Not Israeli intransigence to make peace but a refusal of Arabs, including Palestinian Arabs, to accept peaceful coexistence with Israel. This is an inconveniant truth for many, but one that has to be discussed in any honest conversation about the conflict.

    But don’t take my word for it, listen to what the Arab League’s secretary general Mr. Abd al-Ahlmann Azzah Pasha had to say just prior to the 1948 war:

    “This will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”

    Or the grand mufti’s spokesman Mr. Ahmad Shukeiry: “It does not matter how man {Jews} there are. We will sweep them into the sea.”

    But this is all hasbara, right? HAHA I could go on and on with countless quotes from Hamas and the PLO saying the same thing…KILL THE JEWS, DESTROY ISRAEL. And I know for some people like #35 who had the depravity to write “Yawn” after speaking of the destruction of Israel, that this may not be a bad thing.

    You see the thing is, for people like me who had large portions of my family slaughtered in Europe, I can’t be so glib and “yawn” when I hear people talking about destroying the Jewish State and killing my family. But this is just hasbara too, right?

    PS: #36 Your straw man argument that mere questioning of Israel is tantamount to disloyalty is silly as no thoughtful person would ever suggest that this is the case. Not to mention that the only government that I have to be loyal to is the USA, as I’m not a citizen of Israel. But thanks for your concern.

  • #23

    # 37′s recommendation that I read The Iron Wall (which I unfortunately have) is like me recommending that he/she read From Time Immemorial.

    Shapira’s review of The Iron Wall is helpful for those seeking insight into this overtly biased account of history:
    http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/courses01/rrtw/Shapira.htm

  • BBSNews

    Steve Bronfman 1/2,

    I have no intention of further addressing material from discredited organizations such as CAMERA, UN Watch or any of the other blatantly biased sites out there.

    I’ll be happy to address direct claims about the Goldstone Report to the best of my ability, but I will not spend any more time chasing down bogus charges such as that 4,000-40,000 claim that stemmed from ONE single source, and they misrepresented the testimony.

    Here is the verbatim transcript from Amr Hamad:

    “This shows once again that Israel is trying to destroy the industrial sector to prevent the inhabitants of Gaza from rebuilding their houses, and the industrial sector, for example, has lost more than 33,000 jobs that were source of hope for m-, no less than 100,000 persons here in Gaza. The industrial sector that was destroyed, for example, the 324 factories that were destroy-, that we destroyed used to employ four-hundred thous-, uh, 40,000 workers. And these have lost their uh, jobs, uh, forever. This in itself constitutes a great grave problem, but there is a graver problem, that is, that the industrial sector before and during the war was, had the capacity to restart its uh, operations when crossings are opened, but what we’re afraid of now is that it might reach a point where reopening these factories will be impossible if the crossings are kept closed. Israel is keen on destroying these factories directly, yes, but was also keen and even keener on getting rid of the economic sector, the industrial sector in Gaza, and this is regrettable.

    Therefore this is a serious crime. If we keep quiet about the Israel crimes committed here, crimes that will destroy the private sector in general and specifically the private industrial sector while it is a mainstay for Gaza, and it is also the source for thousands of workers who are looking for jobs, or else these people will have to seek assistance, humanitarian assistance to be able to survive.”

    He nearly said 400,000. Nevertheless, that was his testimony that the Goldstone Report included.

    See: www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/2009.06.28%2520AM_Session.doc

    Again, in anyone’s collective memory, the UNITED NATIONS has not been reimbursed or even taken much notice of by Israel unless it is firing at them.

    The Haaretz story reports a payment to another sovereign government, not the UN.

  • BBSNews

    Steve Bronfman 2/2,

    The use of White Phosphorous is indeed contrary to international law when it is used against civilians, even more so, when it is intentionally used against civilians. The UN mission head was on the phone and franticly sending emails to the IDF coordinator over several hours and telling them that the facility was under direct fire. The IDF ignored the calls and emails even though the channels had been well open before the attack and ALL of the UN facilities are well known, many have been there for decades.

    The same tactic and munitions as well as direct tank shells were used in and around Al Quds Hospital. It was shameful.

    Bronfman, please do not try and use a whitewash IDF report that was dead on arrival in the first place.

    Such an internal, IDF only report is worthless in the light of the recommendations made in the Goldstone Report.

    “That the Security Council require the Government of Israel, under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations:

    (a) To take all appropriate steps, within a period of three months, to launch appropriate investigations that are independent and in conformity with international standards, into the serious violations of International Humanitarian and International Human Rights Law reported by the Mission and any other serious allegations that might come to its attention”.

    The IDF whitewash report does not meet the necessary standard for indepedence and transparency.

    Oh and using Dershowitz as a credible source when it comes to Israeli policy? Please.

    His best claim to fame is successfully defending murderers… Not credible.

  • New Republic

    Thank you for debunking The Iron Wall, one of the most respected works in Israeli historiography, with a New Republic article. The New Republic, like CAMERA and Commentary are wonderful places to get fair reportage and information on Israel. Not.

  • Pro-Israel Ideologues

    There’s clearly some intellectual and emotional damage being done to students who are raised with such a profound identification with a nation state – whether the USA or Israel or what have you – that they lose all critical thinking skills. Professor Bromwich (English dept) sums it up well here:
    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/on-the-lack-of-interest-in-the-goldstone-report.html

    Dana Goldstein has a wonderful article about this as well:
    http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_questioning_spirit

  • steve bronfman

    To #41 There is no point debating someone who doesn’t believe any evidence that casts Israel in a neutral of favourable light is “credible” your mind is made up. You are a victim of your own ideology whatever that is.

    You are as bad as #35 who states “But, some commentators say, the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Yawn.” when the very post before him is a direct quote from the Hamas charter disproving him.

    Maybe you guys are practicing Taqiyya or you’re just ignorant or refuse to admit reality but in anycase you’re constantly proved wrong and ignore reality.

    During the Gaza war Israel send SMS messages warning civilians to flee yet Hamas sent SMS messages threatening them that they wouldn’t be safe anywhere from Hamas rockets;

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/08/63828.html

    This is the essential difference between Israel and Hamas.

    Goldstone refuses to debate anyone since he lost his only debate to Dore Gold. He will only talk now if an opposing view is not heard. You can watch his debate with Gold here;

    http://www.onejerusalem.org/2009/11/dore-gold-debates-goldstone-at.php

    Although Goldstone said he would respond to serious criticisms of the report when challenged by an open letter outlining some of his reports flaws he said;

    “I confirm receipt of your letter. I have no intention of responding to your open letter.”

    http://www.goldstonereport.org/open-letters-to-goldstone/442?task=view

  • steve bronfman

    To #41 There is no point debating someone who doesn’t believe any evidence that casts Israel in a neutral or favourable light is “credible” your mind is made up. You are a victim of your own ideology whatever that is.

    You are as bad as #35 who states “But, some commentators say, the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Yawn.” when the very post before him is a direct quote from the Hamas charter disproving him.

    Maybe you guys are practicing Taqiyya or you’re just ignorant or refuse to admit reality but in anycase you’re constantly proved wrong and ignore reality.

    During the Gaza war Israel send SMS messages warning civilians to flee yet Hamas sent SMS messages threatening them that they wouldn’t be safe anywhere from Hamas rockets;

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/08/63828.html

    This is the essential difference between Israel and Hamas.

    Goldstone refuses to debate anyone since he lost his only debate to Dore Gold. He will only talk now if an opposing view is not heard. You can watch his debate with Gold here;

    http://www.onejerusalem.org/2009/11/dore-gold-debates-goldstone-at.php

    Although Goldstone said he would respond to serious criticisms of the report when challenged by an open letter outlining some of his reports flaws he said;

    “I confirm receipt of your letter. I have no intention of responding to your open letter.”

    http://www.goldstonereport.org/open-letters-to-goldstone/442?task=view

  • steve bronfman

    To #41 There is no point debating someone who doesn’t believe any evidence that casts Israel in a neutral or favourable light is “credible” your mind is made up. You are a victim of your own ideology whatever that is.

    You are as bad as #35 who states “But, some commentators say, the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Yawn.” when the very post before him is a direct quote from the Hamas charter disproving him.

    Maybe you guys are practicing Taqiyya or you’re just ignorant or refuse to admit reality but in any case you’re constantly proved wrong and ignore reality.

    During the Gaza war Israel send SMS messages warning civilians to flee yet Hamas sent SMS messages threatening them that they wouldn’t be safe anywhere from Hamas rockets;

    http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/08/63828.html

    This is the essential difference between Israel and Hamas.

    Goldstone refuses to debate anyone since he lost his only debate to Dore Gold. He will only talk now if an opposing view is not heard. You can watch his debate with Gold here;

    http://www.onejerusalem.org/2009/11/dore-gold-debates-goldstone-at.php

    Although Goldstone said he would respond to serious criticisms of the report when challenged by an open letter outlining some of his reports flaws he said;

    “I confirm receipt of your letter. I have no intention of responding to your open letter.”

    http://www.goldstonereport.org/open-letters-to-goldstone/442?task=view

  • BBSNews

    #23, have the guts to admit you are one of the authors, but you are not entirely too sure of yourself, so you are hiding…

  • chomsky

    For authors who have written persuasive indictments of Israeli policy I do not look to Chomsky or Finkelstein. I think Jeff Halper (An Israeli in Palestine), David Shulman (Dark Hope), Gershom Gorenberg (Accidental Empire), David Myers (UCLA professor, assorted essays), Mark Levine (UC Irvine, assorted essays), Ian Lustick (UPenn), and Henry Siegman are very good. There’s far more – and better – stuff than the Finkelstein/Derschowitz circus of sound. I could go on . . .

    Start with Siegman:
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam

  • BBSNews

    Bronfman,

    I am just going to give you one example of what you should have found yourself if you were in the slightest interested.

    See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

    It’s a nice little story that explains a little about MEMRI and how they just might not be the unbiased source you seem to think they are.

    Your other sources also share similar accounts that call into question their information.

    For instance, in the circle of Web propaganda that you are trying to pass off here, is CAMERA, they were the source of your unsourced quote:

    “I confirm receipt of your letter. I have no intention of responding to your open letter.”

    And well he should. CAMERA is notoriously an Israeli propaganda organization taken seriously by no one except for what is affectionately know on the ‘net as “wingnuts”.

    Oh, and those “warnings”. The Goldstone Report found them less than convincing, as would anybody who looks at the fish in the barrel and tells them, “get out in five minutes your house will be demolished”.

    Where exactly were they supposed to go? A rational person might think they went to a designated shelter where they might receive at least some protection.

    Many did go to UN shelters. Like the one that held hundreds with a fuel depot that was under fire for three hours with even White Phosphorous.

    And gosh, there must be some truth to that one since Israel has *already* paid off the United Nations for damages in incidents just like that.

    The Goldstone Report concluded:

    “The Mission finds that the different kinds of warnings issued by Israel in Gaza cannot be considered as sufficiently effective in the circumstances to comply with customary law as reflected in the First Additional Protocol Article 57 (2) (c). While some of the leaflet warnings were specific in nature the Mission does not consider that general messages telling people to leave wherever they were and go to city centres, in the particular circumstances of the military
    campaign meet the threshold of effectiveness. Firing missiles into or on top of buildings as a ‘warning’ is essentially a dangerous practice and a form of attack rather than a warning.”

  • steve bronfman

    BBS, (part 1)

    “I am just going to give you one example of what you should have found yourself if you were in the slightest interested.

    See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

    It’s a nice little story that explains a little about MEMRI and how they just might not be the unbiased source you seem to think they are.”

    -I never even quoted from MEMRI so I don’t get your point. Besides the fact I could post 10 articles about how biased the Guardian is. But this is beside the point, the article I quoted from was an Arab paper. Instead of blaming the messenger all the time please stick to the message. You aren’t arguing against facts only trying to cast doubt on the messenger.

    “Your other sources also share similar accounts that call into question their information.”

    -Because they’re “Jewish”? is that what you’re really saying? As I said in my last post I never even used MEMRI but if you go to http://www.memritv.org/ there’s videos which any Arabic or Farsi etc speaker can translate.

    “For instance, in the circle of Web propaganda that you are trying to pass off here, is CAMERA, they were the source of your unsourced quote:

    “I confirm receipt of your letter. I have no intention of responding to your open letter.””

    I provided a link to that letter written by Goldsone.

    “And well he should. CAMERA is notoriously an Israeli propaganda organization taken seriously by no one except for what is affectionately know on the ‘net as “wingnuts”.”

    -Once again you aren’t debating the substance of any arguments just belittling the messenger. If I’m wrong prove me so with facts.

    “Oh, and those “warnings”. The Goldstone Report found them less than convincing, as would anybody who looks at the fish in the barrel and tells them, “get out in five minutes your house will be demolished”.”

    -They existed though. At least you’re not denying that.

    “Where exactly were they supposed to go? A rational person might think they went to a designated shelter where they might receive at least some protection.”

    -If Hamas spent its money on bomb-shelters rather than bombs then the people would have somewhere to go, like the 1,000,000 Israeli’s forced to live in bomb-shelters for a month.

  • steve bronfman

    part 2

    “Many did go to UN shelters. Like the one that held hundreds with a fuel depot that was under fire for three hours with even White Phosphorous.”

    Please provide a link to that? Evidence? Do you even know what white phosphorous is or what it does? It provides a cover against anti-airplace missiles like a “smokescreen” so that Hamas couldn’t shoot down Israeli helicopters etc. Firing it at a shelter would prove totally useless.

    “And gosh, there must be some truth to that one since Israel has *already* paid off the United Nations for damages in incidents just like that.”

    -No, one specific incident because unlike Hamas Israel takes responsibilty for its actions. Hamas is even now denying firing at civilians (even though that was its stated aim during the war) saying it was firing at military targets now (even though theres no military base in Sderot).

    http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/01/hamas-finds-itself-innocent-what.html

    Please prove this claim wrong with evidence instead of merely criticising the source.

    “The Goldstone Report concluded:

    “The Mission finds that the different kinds of warnings issued by Israel in Gaza cannot be considered as sufficiently effective in the circumstances to comply with customary law as reflected in the First Additional Protocol Article 57 (2) (c). While some of the leaflet warnings were specific in nature the Mission does not consider that general messages telling people to leave wherever they were and go to city centres, in the particular circumstances of the military
    campaign meet the threshold of effectiveness. Firing missiles into or on top of buildings as a ‘warning’ is essentially a dangerous practice and a form of attack rather than a warning.””

    -The Goldstone report was instigated and funded by the OIC. This whole debate is about its legitimacy so you can’t quote from it to prove its legitimate.

  • BBSNews

    Bronfman,

    I’ll leave you to it then. Well, one more thing. You might stop over at Philip Weiss’s place for a run-down on the Yale event featuring Judge Goldstone.

    Be sure and read the comments as well, their site has some of the most enlightened comments anywhere.

    People who attended also left descriptions of their experience.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/at-yale-judge-goldstone-faces-down-his-accusers.html

    Again, I’ll leave you to it. Reality will catch up with you one day, it always does.

  • TheTumta

    Bronfman,
    “Do you even know what white phosphorous is or what it does?”
    Yes, it burns through flesh to the bone. There is no way to put it out. As for cover for aircraft, I suppose there might be someone out there who would actually buy this canard. The IDF didn’t need any cover as their was no credible military resistance. Strictly a terror tactic used during a massacre.
    No white phosphorous was was by the IDF in South Lebanon the last time around even as they were being soundly defeated.

  • ajithkumarcc

    Hi,

    Cricket as we know is currently the second most followed sport after soccer, with many countries now getting in cricket, can cricket overtake soccer as the most followed sports ever?

  • Yale ’08

    Wow,

    What a bunch of claptrap nonsense masquerading as intelligent editorial. Noah Pollak and Adam Yoffi are a disgrace. Seriously, to think that these guys are at the graduate level at Yale is disturbing. What facile research and shameless cherry-picking of facts.

    I would conclude that the ‘amateur’ commentators on this board were able to tear their argument apart. Its called truth, which is not on the side of modern zionist nor their American financiers.

  • Sorry to confuse you with the facts

    If this is the same Yale ’08 who posted on the other Goldstone article, well any reader of his/comments will truly know what facile research is.

    If not, I think that the only reason you concluded that way after reading these comments is because you already had a certain mindset going in. If you actually read the comments you will see that steve bronfman pretty much destroyed BBCnews and the other people. Rather than actually confronting his arguments and putting him down they just took issue with (what they thought were) his sources. The fact is that the Goldstone Report was unfair and biased against Israel.

    To TheTumta: The reason white phosphorous was not used in Lebanon is because it is an urban warfare device. And if by soundly defeated you mean that Hezbollah has not made a peep for two years then I guess Israel was soundly defeated. And I suppose the rockets from Gaza just fell magically from the sky, and not by any form of military resistance.

    Israel probably has committed crimes in this war. But most of the people on this thread are so prejudiced they probably blame Israel for global warming and the economic crises.

    Read this, guys. And maybe try to repress some of that hateful prejudice.

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Gaza_Operation_Investigations_Update_Jan_2010.htm