ROTC could return to Yale

Jerry Hill’s first day of work at Yale was Veterans Day of 1991. There was no ceremony — which was a change for Hill, who stepped into his new role as Yale’s director of physical plant after 21 years in the Navy Civil Engineer Corps.

But nine years later, Hill took over as Yale’s ROTC advisor and created a ceremony, now an annual tradition held on Beinecke Plaza, before a monument that memorializes not only the Yalies who served in the armed forces, but also an era when military service was a norm, not a rare endeavor.

Jerry Hill, Yale's ROTC advisor, hopes more students will participate in the program.
Jerry Hill, Yale's ROTC advisor, hopes more students will participate in the program.

While Yale was once a veritable military training ground, with nearly half its students enrolled in the Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program during the Korean War, Hill’s experience is emblematic of the change that has occurred on campus. Yale’s faculty banned ROTC on campus in 1969 amid the unpopular Vietnam War, and only a small handful of Yalies each year participate in ROTC programs, which are now held off campus. Opposition to the military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy — which bans gays from serving openly in the military — is often cited as the main reason for keeping ROTC banned, but last month President Barack Obama declared his intention to end the policy.

The move could have ramifications at Yale, University Secretary Linda Lorimer said Sunday night.

“If the government changes its stance on the ability of young people or any people to serve their nation regardless of sexual orientation, then we will be eager to pursue opportunities of having an ROTC unit on campus,” she said. “As soon as the federal government changes its posture, I have no doubt that the Yale administration will want to pursue the option for having a ROTC unit at Yale.”

Currently, only two Yale students are enrolled in ROTC, and Hill said in an interview earlier this month that he was not sure if the military would be interested in returning here because of a lack of student interest.

“It’s a supply and demand thing,” Hill said. “The services are going to put their resources where they think they can get the most young lieutenants for all the money they spend. And I don’t think we have the demand here. It’s very regrettable.”

A WAVERING HISTORY

When the ROTC program was started at colleges during WWI, Yale was one of the first schools to host the program.

During the Korean War, almost half of Yale’s undergraduates were enrolled in ROTC, and many professors added military ranks to their titles. In the late 1960s, with the protests against the Vietnam War, ROTC became unpopular on many college campuses and was banned from many colleges, including Yale, in 1969. While anti-military sentiment pervaded at Yale, the faculty banned ROTC, officially citing the program’s vocational nature and its regulations for courses, which infringe on Yale’s academic independence. For instance, ROTC courses taught by military officials would have to be given Yale academic credits and some of the military instructors would have to be given faculty appointments.

Hill, a student at Tulane University in the late 1960s, remembered similar anti-military sentiments when he was at Berkeley studying civil engineering for the Navy.

“They asked us to be there at six in the morning in uniform, and we had to be off campus by 6:30 because they didn’t want us to be seen around in uniform,” he said. A year after he left, protesters set fire to the ROTC building.

But while anti-military sentiments raged at Yale and at colleges across the country in the 1960s and ’70s, the relationship between Yale and ROTC have been improving.

Hill said he is grateful to University President Richard Levin, whom he described as very accommodating to the ROTC students. The University pays for the commissioning ceremony, the rental cars and even the parking fees at the University of Connecticut, where students participate in the Air Force ROTC program.

This year, the two ROTC students have conflicts that interfere with the training at the UConn campus in Storrs on Thursday afternoon. As a result, a major comes up to Yale every Friday and teaches the two in a classroom, which is permitted since ROTC is now a registered student organization.

“It’s good that we’ve come this far, but it would be great if we had 40 or 50 guys here on ROTC,” Hill said.

Lorimer said she admires students who surmount the logistical hurtles of participating in ROTC.

“I, like many, am eager to provide opportunities for Yale students who want to serve their nation to pursue their education at Yale and take the necessary ROTC preparation,” she said. “Obviously it would be easier if it could occur closer to campus or on campus, but I have been enormously inspired by the Yale students who pursue the demanding program of Yale education and participate in the ROTC program.”

While Hill said the inconveniences of Yale’s ROTC program could deter potential students, he said the only way to expand the program is at the high school counselor level. If counselors are aware of and recommend the program to applicants, Hill said, more students might start enrolling in it.

JUST THE TWO OF US

Still, in its current state, the ROTC functions much like a side project for Hill to manage.

Rising from his role as the director of physical plant, Hill is now the director of engineering for the facilities department, which involves running in-house engineering and reviewing drawings and specifications of new buildings. His ROTC work occupies a strange sphere at Yale, as he oversees a program that no longer officially exists. Hill speaks proudly of the few students who he works with, and he describes his ROTC work as the most meaningful part of his job, even though it takes up a relatively small amount of his time.

“ROTC is the most fun I have here at Yale,” Hill said. “They’re good kids, they’re great kids, and I wish there were more of them.”

Managing ROTC primarily involves arranging transportation for students so that they can get to training. Hill makes sure that students are provided with rental cars free of charge to drive to Sacred Heart University for Army training or to the University of Connecticut in Storrs for Air Force training, which is almost an hour and a half away.

Hill also serves as a contact person between the University and the military and arranges the commissioning ceremony in May.

Connecticut has Army and Air Force ROTC, but no Navy units. Both of Yale’s ROTC students are currently juniors in Air Force ROTC, and Hill says that he cannot recall more than five students being enrolled at any given time during his tenure as adviser.

ROTC student John Swisher ’11 said he appreciates how far Yale goes out of its way to accommodate the ROTC program.

“It’s really incredible that it’s only the two of us,” Swisher said. “If Yale wanted to they could ignore it.”

But Yale students do not receive credit for their ROTC courses, some of which relate to management and engineering, since the program is not officially recognized by Yale, noted David Bookstaber ’99, who went through ROTC as a student and is a member of Advocates for Yale ROTC, which seeks to bring back an official ROTC program to Yale’s campus.

He said he believes “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” is the “prevailing excuse” for the University not to bring back the program. He said Sunday night that he doubts that Yale will restore full standing and full academic credit to ROTC courses even if “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” is repealed. He added that the University does all it can to accommodate the program within the constraint of there being no nearby ROTC campus.

Still, Hill, Bookstaber and Swisher all agreed that Yale works hard to accommodate the ROTC students, who serve as a small remnant of Yale’s military past.

IVY OFFICERS

Yale is by no means alone in its limited ROTC program; Harvard, Columbia and Brown universities also banned it in the Vietnam era. Among those schools, Yale is unique in having a University employee serve as an advisor to ROTC students.

Columbia has approximately nine or 10 students in ROTC at any given time, according to Ted Graske, Columbia Alliance for ROTC Chairman. Harvard has around 30 students at any given time, according to Michael Segal, a leader of the National Advocates for ROTC. Brown currently has no students enrolled in ROTC.

Segal said these universities have host ROTC campuses nearby, whereas he said Yale’s long commute turns away some ROTC students. He said the fact that some Yalies choose to pursue ROTC anyway “shows an incredible amount of determination on the part of those students.”

Hill said he yearns for the day when Yale will regain the large ROTC presence it once had, which he said would bring an added dimension of diversity to campus. He also said greater participation in ROTC at Yale would bring a valuable kind of diversity to the military.

“It’s really a shame at this time in our history when we need really thoughtful and officers with different opinions in the military, that we don’t have enough Ivy League-trained officers,” he said.

It is this belief in making military training available to Yale students that led him to his current post.

Hill’s tenure has been marked by a favorable relationship between Yale and ROTC. Swisher said he has gotten a lot of support from the community at Yale. At a campus with such a small ROTC presence, he has also encountered some confusion.

“There have been a couple of people who have come up to me while I’m in uniform to ask me if I’m in a play,” he said.

Comments

  • Alumnus

    If you do not like the way the military thinks, do not absent yourself from its direction, Yale; rather, flood its ranks with “right thinking” leaders. To bring military thinking around to Yale’s way of thinking, wouldn’t Yale do better to engineer the largest ROTC program out there?

  • y10

    Ms. Lorrimer is a very fair and logical woman. Once Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell disappears, there’s no reason for Yale not to have a well-supported ROTC program back on campus. It’s about time for both!

  • OTS Alumnus

    There is no need for ROTC on campus. I graduated from Yale College and went on to receive my commission through the Air Force Officer Training School. The “management and engineering” courses offered through Air Force training simply do not merit Yale College course credit. Therefore, ROTC should remain an extra-curricular activity.

  • former ROTC guy

    I participated in ROTC on another campus, and frankly, it was embarrassing to have unthinking robots, called “Professor of Military Science” teaching such courses as “US Military History”, “Map Reading” and “The Squad in the Attack” that one could take for credit at an otherwise rigorous and reputable university.

    Please, faculty, keep this stuff out of Yale.

  • Army

    Somehow, I find the above comments (numbers 3 and 4) rather disingenuous. While many of the courses I took in my military career were not as “rigorous” as, say, a Bracken course, they certainly had practical application in “keeping one’s soldiers alive” and “defeating the enemy.”

    Map reading was fascinating (and necessary).

    That said: the key to success (and interest) in military coursework is “attitude.” I have met some of my smartest colleagues in military courses (far smarter, in many ways, than a typical Yalie), and found those courses to be useful and applicable for far longer than most “rigorous” Yale courses.

  • Recent Alum

    It is absolutely shameful that Yale didn’t bring back ROTC years ago. Honestly, if Yale is going to have to wait until Obama abolishes DADT to bring back ROTC, I’d rather ROTC not come back at all. You know that there is something deeply wrong with an institution where political correctness trumps national security.

  • Yep

    Good point #6, especially since it is the directive of (Democrat) civilian leaders that implemented DADT. In other words, ROTC is being punished for the crimes of the elected (Yalie) President.

    That said: you know the whole DADT debacle is simply smoke for a disdain of things military. If not DADT, Yale would manufacture some other reason.

    Now, if we can get HARVARD to re-implement ROTC, you just KNOW that Yale won’t be far behind.

  • alum

    the rotc should not be at yale. the military has no place in an institution of higher learning.

  • Yalie ’13

    I’m only a freshman and I know of at least 5 people who would join ROTC were it to return to campus and many others who would consider it. There really is significant interest in ROTC at Yale, and it’s a shame that they didn’t bring it back decades ago.

  • John Adams

    We are a free country where all are welcome to pursue their beliefs. Why would anyone at Yale be prejudice against another group? Shouldn’t we welcome all? The young men and women at Yale have every right to pursue their interests..

  • Alumnus

    Oh fer cryin’ out loud. Has this board already been hijacked (#8)? I find such a bald and non-nuanced statement (not to mention short) unlikely to emanate from a Yale alum.

    First: Given that several “institutions of higher learning” (e.g., MIT) maintain successful ROTC programs, the statement that the military “has no place” on campus is objectively… wrong.

    Second: Yale is in the biz of producing leaders; are you denying that the military needs leaders? Or that military leaders often go on to captain other, non-military organizations (business, politics)?

    Third: Yale has a proud history of military leadership. What, exactly, do you think is engraved all over the interior of Woolsey Hall (although I rather doubt #8 has seen the interior)? Where do you think Maya Lin got the idea for her memorial?

    If you want Yalies to be POTUS (Clinton, Bush), wouldn’t it be more helpful than not were they to understand in some way the military forces they would command? (BTW: military veterans who go into politics are, ironically, often “anti war,” as they understand more fully the human side of military service and war’s devastation).

    Let us even bring up the issue of “diversity.” Mingling with members of the military would do a world of good for most civilians, perhaps increasing the level of compassion and furthering the understanding that service members are “just people.”

    Lastly–and, I think, most importantly–I reiterate: If you do not like the military, do not ignore it from without but change it from within. Inculcate future military leaders with a broad-based, liberal education such as that provided by Yale.

  • Alum

    Wonderful to see how ideology trumps logic. #6, who seemingly would be a ROTC supporter, would rather take his ball and go home rather than let allow ROTC on campus if it arrives after the President abolishes ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ Explain.

    And #7: don’t you suppose the people who dislike the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy adopted by Clinton just might have had a problem with the policy that preceded it, namely a complete ban on gays serving? The issue isn’t ‘don’t ask, don’t tell,’ the issue is discrimination against gays and that obviously preceded Bill Clinton.

    I don’t support Yale’s ban on ROTC and would welcome a change, regardless of the circumstances. And the ban of gays, whether absolute (as existed before Clinton, if they were discovered) or modified (with ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’), is long overdue to be abolished. The arguments against gays serving sound like the old arguments against blacks serving and have the same basis: those holding the views are uncomfortable with the object of discrimination. At some point in the (near) future, the discrimination against gays will look as absurd in retrospect as to us does that against blacks.

  • Tanner

    Perhaps some military engineers might boost the ranking of Yale’s Engineering programs. Remember all you nerds the internet was a military program.

    And…If Don’t ask, Don’t tell is lifted how would one get out of the next Draft?

  • Another Alum

    @#11 – Just because ROTC programs exist at other top-tier colleges and universities doesn’t mean that #8′s statement is objectively wrong…

    If I were to make a claim that just because murder DOES exist in society, it SHOULD exist in society, you’d rightly say that I’m using fallacious logic. The mere fact that something exists does not make it correct, moral, justified, or reasonable.

    Other colleges and universities may have ROTC programs, but that doesn’t mean Yale should too. Other colleges offer vocational classes, business degrees at the undergraduate level, and physical education classes/majors; does that mean that Yale should offer these as well?

    Note that I’m not suggesting that undergraduate business degrees or phys ed classes are bad, wrongheaded, or have no educational value. Rather, I’m pointing out that the Yale faculty has made a choice to favor certain programs and classes at the expense of others because they are more in line with what the faculty feels Yale’s educational mission ought to be.

    I could easily see an argument against ROTC at Yale centering around the fact that it prepares an individual to enter a certain field or profession (e.g. that of a soldier) instead of broadly developing a student’s intellectual skills, analytical capacity, and creative spirit. And yes, I know that there will be a flood of people howling that ROTC teaches leadership, teamwork, and character and that these are things that Yale College should develop and support in its undergraduates. I won’t disagree, but I’ll counter that physical ed classes also teach teamwork and leadership too, but I don’t see Harold Bloom teaching a Fundamentals of Ultimate Frisbee course at Yale.

    I know I’m leaving out the political dimension of this argument and I’m doing so deliberately. I guess I’d like us (Students, faculty, and alumni) to ask ourselves whether or not ROTC classes should be part of the Yale curriculum and if “The Squad in an Attack” or “Map Reading” deserve to receive college credit alongside “Advanced Inorganic Chemistry” and “The English Romantic Novel”. Maybe they should. But if this is the case, do we want to reconsider our stance on a BA in Business or Vocational training at Yale?

    Finally, let’s keep in mind that Yale is not preventing its students from enrolling in ROTC or joining the military; students can join ROTC programs at other institutions and many do in spite of the inconvenience of travelling to UConn or another campus.

  • Another Alum

    @#11 – Just because ROTC programs exist at other top-tier colleges and universities doesn’t mean that #8′s statement is objectively wrong… If I were to make a claim that just because murder DOES exist in society, it SHOULD exist in society, you’d rightly say that I’m using fallacious logic. The mere fact that something exists does not make it correct, moral, justified, or reasonable.

    Other colleges and universities may have ROTC programs, but that doesn’t mean Yale should too. Other colleges offer vocational classes, business degrees at the undergraduate level, and physical education classes/majors; does that mean that Yale should offer these as well? Note that I’m not suggesting that undergraduate business degrees or phys ed classes are bad, wrongheaded, or have no educational value. Rather, I’m pointing out that the Yale faculty has made a choice to favor certain programs and classes at the expense of others because they are more in line with what the faculty feels Yale’s educational mission ought to be.

    I could easily see an argument against ROTC at Yale centering around the fact that it prepares an individual to enter a certain field or profession (e.g. that of a soldier) instead of broadly developing a student’s intellectual skills, analytical capacity, and creative spirit.

    And yes, I know that there will be a flood of people howling that ROTC teaches leadership, teamwork, and character and that these are things that Yale College should develop and support in its undergraduates. I won’t disagree, but I’ll counter that physical ed classes also teach teamwork and leadership too, but I don’t see Harold Bloom teaching a Fundamentals of Ultimate Frisbee course at Yale. I know I’m leaving out the political dimension of this argument and I’m doing so deliberately.

    I guess I’d like us (students, faculty, and alumni) to ask ourselves whether or not ROTC classes should be part of the Yale curriculum and if “The Squad in an Attack” or “Map Reading” deserve to receive Yale college credit alongside “Advanced Inorganic Chemistry” and “The English Romantic Novel”. Maybe they should. But if this is the case, do we want to reconsider our stance on a BA in Business or vocational training at Yale?

    Finally, let’s keep in mind that Yale is not preventing its students from enrolling in ROTC or joining the military; students can join ROTC programs at other institutions and many do in spite of the inconvenience of travelling to UConn or another campus.

  • FailBoat

    The discrimination of gays is a red herring.

    The original reason for getting rid of ROTC in the Ivy League was anti-military sentiment in the 1960s.

  • Ugh

    “I guess I’d like us (Students, faculty, and alumni) to ask ourselves whether or not ROTC classes should be part of the Yale curriculum and [if so]… do we want to reconsider our stance on a BA in Business or Vocational training at Yale?”

    What. A. Snot.

    Classism, the last “ism” available to the Yale student, at last rears its ugly head. Yep: Generals Washington, Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Odom: what a bunch of low-class, blue-collar, unacademic non-elites.

    I would hazard that most of Yale’s military alumni support ROTC (that would make a nice survey, don’t you think?), and hold that opinion from experience, while the soft-palmed “academics” hold sway from the coffee shop.

    You got God out of it; Country has been out of it for decades; so I guess one attends Yale just for… Yale?

    Now let us employ the same tactics that Yalies use in favor of gay marriage: what possible harm would the existence of an ROTC program at Yale bring down upon non-participating Yalies?

    Do you expect Yale to lower its admissions standards for a particular group (whoops: I should have specified: THIS particular group)?

    Do you suspect that ROTC cadets do NOT fulfill Yale’s standard requirements (as opposed to fulfilling their service obligations IN ADDITION to Yale’s req’s)?

    C’mon, be honest: what is your REAL beef here (other than some smug self-congratulation at having kept the lower-class riff-raff out of New Haven)?

  • LOL

    So Lorimer doesn’t think ROTC should be on the campus until the military conforms to Yale’s view of how it decides who joins its ranks? The arrogance of these pseudo-intellecutals. Why shouldn’t the rest of society share Yale’s benighted view? Why should we support a military at all unless DADT is repealed?

  • WIlliam

    @11

    Leaders?

    I thought soldiers were dogs of the military? Isn’t that what being a soldier is being about? Following the order and not the higher thought?

  • Frank Schaeffer – a quote

    Why do the Ivies need the military? Because clever but amoral strivers, who are only all about “me,” are a menace to the larger community.

    The lesson the Ivy League teaches has become: I am the most important person in any room.

    The lesson the United States military teaches is: the person standing next to me is more important than I am.

  • @#14

    Finally, let’s keep in mind that Yale is not requiring its students to enroll in ROTC or to join the military; students can join an ROTC program or not, at our institution or another–and many do, in spite of the inconvenience and opprobrium endured.

  • Army

    I am with Swisher (who thinks that DADT is not the root issue).

    When Lorimer states “If the government changes its stance on [DADT], then we will be eager to pursue opportunities of having an ROTC unit on campus,” I want to shout “BullScheiss!”

    On another tack: I find it incredible that Yale would discriminate against middle-class families, many of them minorities, who want to serve their country and also, without ROTC scholarships, could not afford a Yale education. Discrimination blatant, ugly, and bigoted.

    My time at Yale was a formative and eye-opening experience, cherished second only to my time served protecting this nation.

    What a topsy-turvy world we live in when service to ideals and to others is denigrated and obstructed.

  • anonymous

    There is also a diversity issue at hand. The lack of ROTC on campus deprives the university of a critical group.

    I think many of my fellow students would agree that Yale is one of the best colleges in the country because of the company we keep here. I have learned a tremendous amount from my diverse array of classmates. The lack of a ROTC program deprives students of a crucial group to learn from. I dont agree with a lot of different people at Yale, but that doesn’t mean I think Yale would be a better campus without them. I personally think we should reinstate ROTC before the country gets rid of “Dont Ask, Don’t Tell” for this reason, but I realize that that isn’t going to happen.

    I recognize that some students do pursue a military career after an undergraduate degree, but that number is much smaller than it would be if we had a ROTC program.

  • JB

    This may come as a shock to those of you who live in the ivy bubble, but most Americans hold Yale in something like bemused contempt – if they ever think about it at all. This story neatly distills the pettiness and hypocrisy that we have come to expect from your school. Considering all of the expedient compromises that the Yale administration routinely makes in every other circumstance – the self-censoring of Mohammed images by the Yale University Press being only the most recent example – no one believes that the ROTC ban is a genuine matter of principle. If anything, DADT is a fig leaf that Yale hides behind to avoid confronting the embarrassing truth that its student body is largely composed of spoiled kids who cannot even conceive of making any real sacrifice on behalf of others, much less wearing the uniform of the country that has handed everything to them on a silver platter. Of course, after a lifetime of being told how special they are, it is no surprise that Yale students have almost unanimously come to believe that it is their birthright to exempt themselves from the messy work of national defense. I have no doubt that if and when DADT is repealed, your precious little Elis will find some other reason to opt out of doing their duty. My guess is that it will have something to do with uniforms being made in sweatshops, or perhaps mess halls that don’t serve fair trade coffee. While our nation honors the service of the tiny handful of extraordinary Yale students who have overcome substantial obstacles to obtain their commissions, and would welcome more, it hardly seems worth the effort to restore ROTC to a campus run by and for self-absorbed ingrates.

  • Skeptic

    Hmmm.. #18 raises a good point: “Why should we support a military at all unless DADT is repealed?”

    The question is not one of Yale imposing “its own standards” with respect to discrimination against citizens because of their sexual orientation/identity, but one of Yale not wanting to be party to discrimination (as very widely defined in the civil sphere) in general. Should Yale support ROTC if the military would not induct Jews?, Blacks? Catholics? Atheists? Reasonable people will agree that these are unacceptable discriminations. Most reasonable people would add sexual orientation/identity to this list.

  • Gay in the Military

    DADT will remain the law in the military for the foreseeable future. Our lawmakers don’t have the guts to enact a repeal. There is no reason for any institution to support an organization that imposes such a discriminatory policy as a condition for employment.

    Since the implementation of DADT, society at large has become far more accepting of gay and lesbians while the military remains locked in a backward era of discrimination. Diversity in the military is generally poor. Among senior officers, there is little representation of women and minorities. The halls of the Pentagon don’t resemble the demographics of America and the ban on homosexuals is just another indication of how our military leaders want to keep diversity out of the ranks.

    Sadly, we do have 65,000 gay and lesbian servicemembers in our armed forces and subject to this discrimination every day. They go to the fields of battle knowing that if they die their loved one will not be notified. While the armed forces spend billions of dollars to support the “military family,” the same-sex partners of gay and lesbian servicemembers are shut out. When our soldiers, sailors, and airmen make their return home from long deployments, the same-sex partners must watch anonymously while the other spouses and family members lavish their loved ones with hugs and kisses. Same-sex spouses are denied entry into the spouses clubs and support groups that make deployments manageable. At awards ceremonies, changes of command, and retirements, the gay and lesbian servicemember never gets to publicly acknowledge the partner that supported them through years of arduous service and duty to country.

    DADT is a shameful policy. A return of ROTC to Yale should not occur until the discrimination is ended and gay and lesbian servicemembers are treated equal to all soldiers in uniform.

  • Army

    @#26

    Choose change from within: flood the officer ranks with “right thinking” Ivy Leaguers rather than shrieking “Run away! Run away!”

  • OTS Alumnus

    Earning my B.A. in Mathematics from Yale was the most challenging experience of my life.
    Vector Analysis, Abstract Algebra, Set Theory…My brain sweats just remembering those hours of library time digesting completely foreign and abstract concepts.
    When I compare that to the training I’ve received from the Air Force, I’m genuinely angered to think of Yale awarding course credit to students for simply reciting lines from an Air Force Doctrine manual. And would those credits be awarded only to ROTC cadets? Or could any Yale student register for the nap-for-credit courses?
    Military-style training has its place, but it is not at Yale.

  • Lit Crit

    When I compare my military training to the training I received from Yale’s Literature department, I’m genuinely angered to think of Yale awarding course credit to students for simply reciting lines from its indoctrination manual. And would those credits be awarded only to Lit Crits? Or could a Yale student with an actual opinion pass these the nap-for-credit courses?

  • Hey, Marine!

    Hey, Zoomie — this here is a discussion about the military: bus drivers and squids need not apply.

  • @24

    More of us than you may think support our military and would gladly sacrifice our lives for our country in a defensive war. Vitriol like yours, sadly, is part of the reason that the exceptions do not. Your bitterness is clearly the source of your opinion on Yale’s ROTC policy, not the other way around. Grow up.

  • Air Force Chris

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg

    Best Movie ever made… ROTC will be fine without Yale… the military will somehow manage… just be thankful we’re here is all we ask. Realize that no one wants to go to war less than the Soldier/Sailor/Marine/Airman. Get an awesome degree and then join the military or not. No angst… if you can make six figures working on Wall St, or at some law firm you should… I for one appreciate folks that make good money and pay their taxes… because those are the Americans funding my way of life. We’ll defend, you just support us… oh, and it doesn’t do any good to blame us for a policy the politicians put into place… if you don’t like the DADT policy, talk to your representatives.

  • ’11

    Having ROTC on campus would be a violation of the university’s non-discrimination policy. I would like DADT to be repealed, and I would also like ROTC to return to campus upon the repeal of DADT. ROTC should return as a not for credit extracurricular activity. The college does not offer vocational training for credit, so it would not be appropriate to offer military training for credit. The military is doing a disservice to itself by excluding gay soldiers and alienating itself from universities that have non-discrimination policies.

  • JoethePlumber

    It is amazing to me that Yalies are bothered more by a law that keeps gays in the closet than by islamic extremists who wish to keep gays headless. I expected more from a school with such high intellectual standards. People who serve in such a conditional way would never be good soldiers anyway.

  • @JoethePlumber

    I think you’d be hard pressed to find a yalie (or anyone for that matter) who thinks that DADT is worse than the inhuman treatment of gay people in some islamic countries. It’s not. But the two matters are completely unrelated… I don’t understand your point. I’m certainly concerned about the abuses of gay people in the middle east, but that doesn’t preclude thinking that DADT is an awful, counterproductive, discriminatory policy that is anti-American and needs to be changed.

  • Alum

    I would just like to comment on the idea that Yale does not offer vocational training for credit. Actually, it does. Music lessons are just one example. There’s also the Teacher Preparation Program, and probably others.

  • Alum

    It’s about time!